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Maya To Houdini Roadtrip


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Hello everybody

I'm a maya user, actually from beta 7 since i was working at Alias Wavefront. It has been hard to ditch maya for another software but we pushed the limits of maya and it crashed to many times that we can live with it. So we decided to switch to Houdini.

Actually i'm trying to get along with Houdini for quite a while but every time i'm starting to play around i have to translate all maya comands into houdini - and for sure that it's bad cause i'm always ending by freezing or crashing houdini.

A while ago when we bought XSI i bought also from 3dtutorial.com a video for Maya to XSI explaining how to "translate" each maya concept and workflow to xsi workflow. That tutorial was great since it allowed me to jump on XSI without wasting time wondering why does it do it this way or that way.

I'm looking for something similar to make the transition from maya to houdini.

Is there a Houdini for MayaUsers tutorial?

I'm doing 3d and compositing for the last 10 years using Alias and Wavefront products so i know a thing or 2 about this.

But i really want to understand the houdini paradigm. I watched Garman's Gnomon DVD, it was great but when i tried making a curve and tried adding a point i end up searching the help with no sucess. And i'm sure it's not houdini it's just the way i'm used to think.

I really think Houdini it's the software to use for vfx work and i'm ready to ditch maya completely. Compared to Houdini Maya looks like a broken toy. And i should know a thing or two about this cause i used to work at Alias Wavefront as a Support Application Engineer.

How should i approach this roadtrip?

_________________

adrian cruceru

digital FX

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not enough mana to cast spell

rendering aborted ....

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Hi there and welcome to the world of Houdini. I am sure that once you learn the basic workflow of Houdini you will find it a much more efficient and stable platform. For understanding the workflow I would recomend the VTMs at 3DBUZZ.com. Most are quite basic but they really do a great job of laying the groundwork. http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_dl_list.php?c=11

The group here are an awesome bunch and have really helped me out a lot so don't be afraid to post whenever you have a question.

Jerry

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Oh, come on peliosis, be fair - you don't seriously expect him to throw away his many many years of experience, do you?? This ain't cgtalk here! That would be ridiculously wasteful, don't you think?! So many concepts are so similar that its what makes the transition even harder, though. It'll come quickly I expect, because of all Adrians work with other software.

--

So, welcome to odforce, Adrian!

I posted up at the SESI website for you to be aware of the OdWiki page.

I'm sorry there is not much more info I know about myself but I'm sure you can get some more direct answers if you post here.

Good luck and have a bit of patience with your frustrations you'll no doubt run into at first.

Take care,

Jason

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@Jason, you mean peship right? ;)

As for the other stuff, I agree with what Jason said. Right now there is no nice tutorial or video that shows how to translate the workflow from Maya 2 Houdini unfortunately (perhaps you can make the first once you've cracked it :)).

I think the best thing would be to ask specific questions about how to do things in Houdini. Once you've asked a few of those you should start getting the hang of the workflow. Houdini is one of the only software packages I've used that has the proverbial "light bulb" point, where everything clicks into place. Once that happens it's hard to go back to the way things were before :).

Good luck, hope we can help.

Marc

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Hi Adrian

welcome

I have also 6+ years in maya and have the same experience like switching from fiat to ferrari!

I dont have much experience switchin scenes from maya to h, because only thing I reuse from maya are objs :lol:

with which I work later in h, so I can rescue my old models :P

I am art director for next gen shooter and in our project since I came majority of art team switched from max to xsi and some to maya, with all modeling team adapting to zbrush also!

I am now working just with houdini for personal work and at work I need maya still.

For learning whats out there , and I tried and worked professionaly in max, maya, the biggest dead end for me is if you keep this old paths and ways to do it from old software and then look for them in new package!

I see people switching from max to maya and looking for the same tool with same name...and then they get frustrated...all major 3d packages have somewhat simmilar pack of toils they are just under diferrent drop down menu or named diferrently

now for learning houdini i keep the task/lesson in mind what I want to do and then use tools and procedures in native to houdini to do it-with a help from this awesome comunity and houdini mailing list!

I dont aproach houdini task from the viewpoint how did I do this in maya because usually you get stuck

this of course doesnt mean that all the previous work/ knowledge is thrown away -it will fit in when its needed for sure

we just need to remove mental obstacles/habits in head and be open to learning

and especialy in houdini there is never one way to do the given task...

kind regards

Zoran

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@ Jason - i think you got me a bit wrong.

I tought that Adrian is little overexcited by his new Houdini oportunity, which is all good.

But sometimes ( all we ) do not react right in such mental condition :)

So with my advise #1 i ment exactly what the first words in your posts are about.

:P

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thank you

i'm really keen to see what Houdini can do.

In order to clarify a bit my experience so i don't get treatet for a fool, i have more than 10 years of 3d experience using Advanced Visualizer, Explore, Power Animator, Studio, Dynamation, Kinemation and Composer, and i mean knowing the software deeply not reading about it on the internet. I'm an Alias Wavefront Certified Instructor for Animation and i trained people in both Alias products as well as Discreet FFI. I coded some macros for composer and shake and i'm running a 3d and compositing boutique for digital vfx work. For about 4 years we were developing a pipeline based on maya using a lot of mel scripts, then 2 years ago we jumped on maya API writing plugins for maya mostly trying to cover the big holes maya workflow has in it. Since we love procedural work we pushed maya to the limits and it simply crashed to a point that it becomes unreliable.

We're trying to figure out a way to switch pipeline from maya to something else. We tried first using XSI for the mental ray integration and it was ok up to a point where again we need to code to make things the way we want. Speed is an issue here since we do mostly advertising jobs and we're in the process of developing a feature film workflow so we have to deal with solutions fast and reliable. I cannot push a solution for a shot and get it 90% done and if i push a bit more it becomes unstable. Directors tend to ask for a bit more and we love giving them a some extra options to play aroud with. Those who really did productions with maya know what i'm talking about.

We need to swap also the mental attitude towards the way software works in order to really understand how houdini works. I'm not interested in what each tool does cause i can read the manual and i can understand how to combine tools to get it where we need to what i'm really interested is to know the right workflow for houdini.

I know that i can use an Edit SOP to xform points of a curve/surface but i don't know how to add a point to a curve for example or why if i want to edit the curve i just created in a curve sop i cannot select multiple points and xform them (i guess that's an edit sop only), i don't know how to change the pivot point when xforming points of an object, i don't get how to select the points of a curve when points are displayed but i also footprint an upstream node then outputs a surface and not select points from both the curve and resulting surface and so on. I'm stuck to the point ot how do i edit geometry and why do i have to reselect the points using q and RMB for xforming in an edit sop for example. the list is long and it has to do with the way houdini works and why you do thing this way and not that way. Why i cannot edit a VEX SHOP in the VOP and how to i set up tessalation (maybe it does not as prman), raytracing and antialiasing for mantra. Damn i feel stupid!

I cannot ask for help on vfx shots until i really understand how houdini works. That's why i need some guidance on the houdini workflow.

Once again thank you!

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I know that i can use an Edit SOP to xform points of a curve/surface but i don't know how to add a point to a curve for example or why if i want to edit the curve i just created in a curve sop i cannot select multiple points and xform them (i guess that's an edit sop only), i don't know how to change the pivot point when xforming points of an object, i don't get how to select the points of a curve when points are displayed but i also footprint an upstream node then outputs a surface and not select points from both the curve and resulting surface and so on. I'm stuck to the point ot how do i edit geometry and why do i have to reselect the points using q and RMB for xforming in an edit sop for example. the list is long and it has to do with the way houdini works and why you do thing this way and not that way. Why i cannot edit a VEX SHOP in the VOP and how to i set up tessalation (maybe it does not as prman), raytracing and antialiasing for mantra. Damn i feel stupid!

As others have said unfortunately there isn't one specific tutorial that will answer all your questions. I'm sure you'll pick up a lot by skimming through all the tutorials out there (there aren't that many) other than that all we can do is answer specific questions. So to tackle the ones you have already mentioned.

To add a point to a curve sop just shift LMB on the curve. Unfortunately as you have spotted already you can only edit multiple points at once by adding another sop - edit or transform sops. By the way when using the tools check out the context help at the bottom on the interface, it gives good hits - like LMB to add a point to a curve sop.

Similarly always check the RMB menu whilst over the handle (in the viewport) - it will give you many options - like setting the pivot point. In the network editor try control RMB.

To reselect without having to do q and RMB turn off secure selection - the little padlock second from bottom on the left of the viewport.

You can edit shaders that are made in VOPs in VOP land but not ones that are hard coded. This is a legacy thing.

One other biggie that gets people is the way hscript is different from Mel script, i'm sure if you check the forums you will read more about this. But if the penny still doesn't drop keep asking questions and we'll try to answert them.

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ok, i will mention some of the conceptual differences and relations between maya and houdini, maybe this will help you somehow.

The biggest difference is that Maya's hypergraph is wrapped in UI, for good and bad. Most of the time you are building and updating networks by pressing buttons or using viewport manipulations, instead of creating and connecting nodes yourself - at least this is the default workflow and most people are fallowing it. Houdini does not have such thing - you have your nodes and their channels ( with several exceptions ), from that point you need to figure out how to build (working) networks. This initial step will require little more time to understand how the things are supposed to operate togather. Dont get frustrated, after that everything is mutch easy.

Houdini is broken on different modules, unlike Maya where all the nodes live in one common space - the hypergrpaph, in Houdini you have different contexts - *OP networks, each of them has unique set of nodes. This makes the management and automation of the scenes little harder, but not that mutch really. It's like the file structure on your HDD.

While modeling in Houdini is waste of time in general, the SOP level offers the most sophisticated control over the geometry. SOP can do unique things impossible, or at least, very difficult to acheive in other applications.

Maybe you want to start from here.

Houdini comes with shading language out of the box, which is a huge plus. It takes some time to get advantages of it. Unlike Maya/MR, where shaders are basicly C++ style programs, this is mutch easier and in this way usefull.

In Maya people use MEL all over the place - mostly for building tools, for automation and custom UIs.

In Houdini the things are working little different - HScript is weak and with limited purpose.

Houdini has a digital asset system, which main purpose is to organize the handling of ... well, digital assets.

But you can use it to build your own tools and UIs.

Both apps are very fast ... but only when you work with spheres and cubes only. :P

...

Of course, there is a lot more to say, but that's enough for now.

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For myself I found I made the most progress when I stopped trying to convert between packages and just pretended I had never done 3D before. After about a week of going crazy I decided to just learn it for what it is. Once I did that the workflow began to make sense and after I had the "Lightbulb Moment" that Marc mentioned it all began to flow! Once you hit that point I don't think you will have any problem using the concepts you have learned before.

I think the biggest problem new Houdini users hit is trying to "convert" from one package to the other. All the previous experience you have is likely more of a problem than anything until you get that breakthrough of understanding the very unique workflow. Once you do all your previous experience will be a huge bonus. It was Jason Busby that gave me that fresh view I needed. I hope you keep with it until you get the feel for the workflow. Once you do you will never want to go back to anything else!

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I think the biggest problem new Houdini users hit is trying to "convert" from one package to the other. All the previous experience you have is likely more of a problem than anything until you get that breakthrough of understanding the very unique workflow. Once you do all your previous experience will be a huge bonus. It was Jason Busby that gave me that fresh view I needed. I hope you keep with it until you get the feel for the workflow. Once you do you will never want to go back to anything else!

it's exactly how i told myself to learn it, fresh mind. it works quite easy untill i'm getting into network in networks and i tend to get lost.

One thing i will try to do is the city from another thread. We did this 2-3 years ago in maya by using particles and maps to drive the position and size, so we could draw a map and emit particles from where land was available, force the particles to shape a grid, random orient the buildings and heights and so on. Having a basis of 150 buildings we end up quite easy with a 96000 building city, with space for the streets and parks. I've seen scripts for landscaping in maya but were to slow to use or to complex to manage.

One thing that bothered me in maya was the fact that rand() is dependent on the current session of maya and it's not replicable. using a seed function you could force maya to use one seed for the current session but once you exit maya and reopen the scene the rand() function differes and you have no control over it.

How is the rand() function in houdini?

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From my experience rand() stays constant across all sessions as long as the seed is the same. I would would highly recomend sticking to several really basic projects though until you really get the concept of Houdini workflow. My guess is that if you jump into something like the city you will become even more frusterated.

Maybe it won't happen to you but I tried that when I first started and just about gave up on Houdini. Man am I glad I didn't give up! It is one of the greatest passions for me now.

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it's exactly how i told myself to learn it, fresh mind. it works quite easy untill i'm getting into network in networks and i tend to get lost.

One thing i will try to do is the city from another thread. We did this 2-3 years ago in maya ...

Hi Adrian,

In case you want to still give it a try on the city, you can download the file I sent to the 42 nodes hackers contest ( just scroll down to the results post).

Since I'm a recent user, and only have time to play with Houdini on my spare time the workflow might not be the best it should be, but I tried to make it as clean as possible for the contest.

Just ask if you have any questions on it.

Also on the same subject but surely more in depth, there is the new DVD FrenchOP has just released.

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I am coming from the same place, wavefront, explore, alias, dyanmation, softimage, maya b0.7, and so on. The place I worked had a little package called prisms on an indigo elan, but no one knew what it really did, and I am kicking myself for not checking it out in 1994.

one of the biggest obtacles I ran into is the interface selecting and manipulations, take some time to understand what it means to reselct geometry and use the handles, and you will immeditely be more comfortable.

also, learn the group SOP early, it is a moment of enlightment as to how you can procedurally select object faces, and change the selection for further operations. completly impossible in maya to reselect faces for a polyextrudeface, for example.

play with the copy SOP for some immedite gratification

I learned the true power of CHOPs by using Touch from derivitive, a real time system derived from an earlier version of houdini

I do not like the raw modelling tools like you describe, and I am still clumsy with basic point and curve editing.

MD

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i wish i had the funding for getting into houdini at v1.0 when jeff wagner showed it to me but it's a bit late for remorse. as soon as i have free time, i'll play more with houdini. will cunningham book is fun to read and it makes me want to have the time to read the manual from a to z.

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also, learn the group SOP early, it is a moment of enlightment as to how you can procedurally select object faces, and change the selection for further operations. completly impossible in maya to reselect faces for a polyextrudeface, for example.

MD

hey mattd, this is the least difference :)

check this link to refresh your memory:

http://petershipkov.com/development/compon...tionhistory.htm

I think for Maya user the attrib* SOPs are making the most significant difference.

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