tveda Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Hey all, I was toying around with H15 this morning and noticed that the Point SOP now seems to be in VEX format (ex: @Cd.r), rather its attributes seem to be. Totally caught me off guard, as the documentation still has things in "$" format... has anyone else noticed if any more nodes have been changed to this format. I'm sure there is a reason for this in the end, I just didn't see this anywhere. Thanks for any insight! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mestela Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 http://www.sidefx.com/docs/houdini15.0/news/15/ui#idm139712496577584 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netvudu Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) this caught me off-guard as well...for instance, is there an equivalent to $CY for the copy SOP? @Cy or @cy or @CY don´t seem to work at all. Edit: Not changing the local variables section on each node´s help before doing this for ALL the appropiate nodes is a BIG mistake on SESI´s side. Now I have to teach BOTH systems as opposed to just the new one, doubling the confusion for the student. Edited October 20, 2015 by Netvudu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybar Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Don't people read the docs anymore, at the very least "whats new" for a new release? I think it's nice, it resembles VEX a lot more. @ for attributes and $ for variables. As for $CY on the Copy SOP above, thats a variable and not an attribute afaik.. So it won't have an "equivalent". The Point SOP is all about attributes so it makes sense, although the old local vars is still usable as well. I don't really see the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tveda Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 I was reading the list here for the "whats new" section: http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3138&Itemid=422#ui that explains why I missed the actual help file notes, apologies. @Netvudu that's what confused me, I'm bright enough to look at the help doc, but it went straight back the the old "$" context. I only installed the apprentice version for my home use, but we are prepping to upgrade at the office today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netvudu Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Don't people read the docs anymore, at the very least "whats new" for a new release? I think it's nice, it resembles VEX a lot more. @ for attributes and $ for variables. As for $CY on the Copy SOP above, thats a variable and not an attribute afaik.. So it won't have an "equivalent". The Point SOP is all about attributes so it makes sense, although the old local vars is still usable as well. I don't really see the problem. $CY is indeed a variable. $F is a variable as well, but it DOES have a vex equivalent on @Frame. So, what´s the game now? global variables have equivalents but locals don´t? So local attributes have equivalents, but local variables don´t, but global variables do....see where I´m going? it´s not consistent. That´s the problem. You probably don´t see the problem because you don´t have to teach this to on an everyday basis, but I do. And also a "what´s new" web site cannot pretend to be a replacement for the whole docs, no matter how you want to put it. Edited October 20, 2015 by Netvudu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybar Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) $CY is indeed a variable. $F is a variable as well, but it DOES have a vex equivalent on @Frame. So, what´s the game now? global variables have equivalents but locals don´t? So local attributes have equivalents, but local variables don´t, but global variables do....see where I´m going? it´s not consistent. That´s the problem. You probably don´t see the problem because you don´t have to teach this to on an everyday basis, but I do. And also a "what´s new" web site cannot pretend to be a replacement for the whole docs, no matter how you want to put it. If you think in terms of VEX, I believe it is a lot more consistent than it was before. They're just streamlining it so that it is similar. Just something you need to get used to. Also I'm not sure what you mean by local attribute? You have attributes on your geo, not attributes local only to one node (?). Don't you think it will be easier for your students, if both this stuff and VEX is similar? Take @P for example. It is a whole lot easier to understand what @P.x refers to, rather than the quite arbitrary $TY that isn't really used much elsewhere - and certainly not in vex/vops. And no, "whats new" isn't a replacement for the docs. But as you said, you were "caught off-guard" - which wouldn't have happened if you had read it through. Same thing as with the daily builds, I'm not sure how many reads those changelogs. It's a good practice. Edited October 20, 2015 by Skybar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netvudu Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) If you think in terms of VEX, I believe it is a lot more consistent than it was before. They're just streamlining it so that it is similar. Just something you need to get used to. Also I'm not sure what you mean by local attribute? You have attributes on your geo, not attributes local only to one node (?). Don't you think it will be easier for your students, if both this stuff and VEX is similar? Take @P for example. It is a whole lot easier to understand what @P.x refers to, rather than the quite arbitrary $TY that isn't really used much elsewhere - and certainly not in vex/vops. And no, "whats new" isn't a replacement for the docs. But as you said, you were "caught off-guard" - which wouldn't have happened if you had read it through. Same thing as with the daily builds, I'm not sure how many reads those changelogs. It's a good practice. I would agree with you if the $ workflow was totally replaced. As it stands I previously could start teaching VEX whenever I want to, so I could introduce it gradually after VOPs and up to that point everything was $. In fact it was consistent because they were ALL variables, some of them mapped from attributes. Now, both systems coexist from day 1. Seeing how some variables also get VEX equivalents but other don´t, it will be confusing for newcomers. Trust me, if there´s something I know pretty well by now, it´s newcomers. From a user that already knows Houdini POV it does make more sense. For a beginner it´s just asking for confusion...which will be even worse when that guy/gal (that I can confirm you doesn´t even know there´s a "what´s new" section) goes into the docs and see the non-updated local variables section with no sign whatsoever of the VEX syntax. Yes, the instructor can solve the problem for the student, but they just doubled my workload which was already quite full, if you ask me. If you have any doubts of such a behaviour, just start reading this thread from the beginning, because what Tim asked in the first post is a reasonable doubt, and it is going to appear in my first classes a million times Edited October 20, 2015 by Netvudu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tar Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Make sure to post the documentation bug to SideFX. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mestela Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Some more context here: https://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_forum&Itemid=172&page=viewtopic&p=188379#188379 Yes, its a shame about the docs, but the push to @attribs makes sense, and in the long run it's more consistent. You're citing a very specific use case re copy, compare that to being able to use consistent naming in vops, vex, shops, pops, @group expressions, with the performance to match. If I were teaching Houdini (and I've been doing that in various ad-hoc ways at work and online), I'd be starting with vex and vops, not ending with it. Get the core of vops down, the rest of houdini makes a lot more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netvudu Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Yes. Once again, as a user I concur it is and will be better. As a instructor I foresee the problems for my students. Yes. I just sent the bug to SideFX, Marty. You´re right. Just complaining will do nothing to improve it. Also, Matt I understand where you come from regarding how to teach Houdini starting with VEX and VOPs. Many Houdini veterans think that way. After several years I personally disagree for many reasons I won´t list here not to derail the thread. I will simply say that such a method works wonders for TDs that already worked for years as pros and falls abysmally with most students. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegro Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Now I have to teach BOTH systems as opposed to just the new one, doubling the confusion for the student. Teaching is horrible in this version of Houdini. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbay312 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Yeah, this is really confusing. So from what I can tell, there is a mix of $ and @ variables that are allowed along with some variables that don't need any syntax before it. How do you discern what should use @ vs $ vs nothing? I've been following FXPHD's Introduction to Houdini 12, (great series btw), and some of the custom point sop expressions are screwed up. Edited January 24, 2016 by tbay312 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegro Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 My suggestion is to get away from the point sop as soon as you can. If you can learn how to do the same things either with vops, or wrangle nodes, you'll be better off.The point node is quite slow due to the time period it was programmed into Houdini, and while it can be easier to do some things with it (matching by id attribute, setting up an edge direction attribute), for most behaviour it's not much trickier and much more efficient at runtime to have it set-up in vops. I still haven't figured out what they're attempting to do with @ in the point sop, so I've pretty much just abandoned it all together (which might have been what they were going for). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbay312 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Ahh okay, thanks for the info. I'll hop on those vops/wrangles and get those vex skills going then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranw0477 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) I tried to use the new @ syntax in a point sop to change the point color using @P.x, @P.y, @P.z but got error message, why? The error message is "syntax error - extra tokens detected in expression" Sorry I made a mistake. Edited January 26, 2016 by rGarfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mestela Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Works here. But again, I'd suggest you try and stop using the point sop, and use other things instead (colour sop, normal sop, wrangle sop, point vop) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pockets Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) I noticed this, and it threw me off, but then I remembered I stopped using the Point SOP entirely after getting comfortable with VOPs and the Wrangle SOPs since there isn't anything that I used to do with the Point SOP, that I can remember, that doesn't work faster and better in a Wrangle, a VOP, etc., as mestela suggests. Edited February 2, 2016 by pockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegro Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Yeah, the only reason I come back to the point sop now is for the simplicity of generating an edge direction attribute on curves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netvudu Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Stephen, you mean for a tangent direction? Surely, Polyframe SOP is much easier/faster for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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