Some school questions

[Adam Ferestad]

I am at a bit of a crossroads for my education, and I am looking for some aid in figuring out what way to go. I have already gotten an associates (2-year) degree in 3d animation, focusing on 3d studio. I started using Houdini a couple months ago, and have found a passion for developing tools and ways to solve problems. Due to this, I have been contemplating what to do in my current educational endeavors. I am currently enrolled at Kent State University in Ohio in their 3d animation program, which again focuses on 3ds, with a minor in Applied Mathematics. I have been looking at postings for development staff, specifically Sr. Developers, and noticed that they were looking for a 4 year degree in mathematics or computer sciences. That got me thinking, would I be better off switching majors to Mathematics?

I really love the math and solving answers to problems that come up, or figuring out something cool to do with what I've learned. The only downside for me with the development side is that I have very weak coding skills, and it will be very difficult for me to bring them up as the more advanced languages never seem to click in my head. I know that coding is a huge part of the development process, and I will develop my skills as far as I can, but as for this moment, I am slightly resigned to their low status.

If there are any digital content developers out there who work for big houses, I would love to hear some input from you and find out what you do in your average day.

[Erik_JE]

If you enjoy math i think you are very capable of picking up programming. It is all about practice, practice and then more practice. Same as with math unless you are some descendant of Einstein.

Offtopic: You got some crazy bug with the menu on your webpage that make the text below it jump around when you hover.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Erik_JE

[Macha]

I've got a similar problem. I find maths very interesting but I'm weak on the coding part as well. It always seems to be an endless battle with language and infrastructure issues rather than solving interesting problems. My strategy is to strengthen my problem solving power and hope that sooner or later programming becomes easier (one of my other brilliant strategies is to win the lottery so that I won't die poor and impoverished; so take my opinions with a good pinch of salt and pepper)

I've known many programmers that find themselves in the opposite situation. They positively hate maths but revel (like pigs in mud) in programmer's stuff such as writing assembly code with green font on black backgrounds or using the command line to send emails.

If you can combine both you're on a winner! Add geology and I think I'd have my dream-degree!

Edited May 30, 2011 by Macha

[Adam Ferestad]

Thanks for the feedback so far, and thanks for the heads up on the issue on my site Erik. I got it fixed now, I thought I had done it before, but I guess not.

Macha, I have the exact same thing. One of my good friends, whom I do web work with, is like that. He uses command line to do EVERYTHING (last time he was over here, he opened the browser with it), but he is absolutely trash with math. He actually calls me whenever he needs math worked on for a project he is doing. I need to figure out what the going consultant rate is for solving other people's math problems. Haha.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Adam Ferestad

[Andz]

[rant mode ON]

I really wonder how much programming a programmer really knows, the ones I have worked with can't to a thing without you delivering them all the specs and pseudocodes.

[rant mode OFF]

Sorry if that was of topic.

I love math, but my background is in arts, I know my ways in programming but struggle a lot with OOP, and classes and stuff. Not it's concept or how it works, but why to use it. When ever I'm trying to study it, all the reasons people tell to use it are weak in my point of view (or ways of thingking).

[rant mode ON]

Be careful, as programmers will use your spec and pseudocodes as proof against you later on. And the words you'll hear most often is "That wasn't specified..."

[rant mode OFF]

[hopbin9]

Admin,

3D animation and computer programming are completely different work cultures. 3D animation is a creative process while software development is an analytical process.

While you may enjoy the creative side of developing software you might not like the reporting, bug fixing, attending meetings and following a structured development process that software development companies follow. Most people who enjoy software development are very good at problem solving but they lack creativity and creative thinking. They view the world in terms of logical reasoning and spend a lot of time reading about APIs, SDKs and development methodologies.

If you have a strong interest in the technical side of things, then you've been studying the wrong 3D application. As 3dsMax is the backbone application for most gaming/architectural type studios, and in most cases their pipelines are non-technical and straight forward. It can actually be worse in gaming companies because they have in-house coders who aren't knowledgeable in 3D animation who openly criticize 3D people who attempt anything in the way of programming.

Houdini, Maya, RealFlow and Nuke will be more to your liking. You're also more likely to find work as a Technical 3D Artist in studios using that software then 3dsMax. As a technical 3D artist you'll be required to solve challenges using programming, scripting and Bash scripts along side your 3D animation duties.

3dsMax is also focused a lot on the Windows platform, and you'll want to learn Linux (install it at home on another boot partition). It's a great OS to learn.

Big studios also need technical people to manage render farms, IT infrastructure, pipeline tools, etc.. etc..

So programming and 3D go hand and hand

[Adam Ferestad]

Admin,

3D animation and computer programming are completely different work cultures. 3D animation is a creative process while software development is an analytical process.

While you may enjoy the creative side of developing software you might not like the reporting, bug fixing, attending meetings and following a structured development process that software development companies follow. Most people who enjoy software development are very good at problem solving but they lack creativity and creative thinking. They view the world in terms of logical reasoning and spend a lot of time reading about APIs, SDKs and development methodologies.

If you have a strong interest in the technical side of things, then you've been studying the wrong 3D application. As 3dsMax is the backbone application for most gaming/architectural type studios, and in most cases their pipelines are non-technical and straight forward. It can actually be worse in gaming companies because they have in-house coders who aren't knowledgeable in 3D animation who openly criticize 3D people who attempt anything in the way of programming.

Houdini, Maya, RealFlow and Nuke will be more to your liking. You're also more likely to find work as a Technical 3D Artist in studios using that software then 3dsMax. As a technical 3D artist you'll be required to solve challenges using programming, scripting and Bash scripts along side your 3D animation duties.

3dsMax is also focused a lot on the Windows platform, and you'll want to learn Linux (install it at home on another boot partition). It's a great OS to learn.

Big studios also need technical people to manage render farms, IT infrastructure, pipeline tools, etc.. etc..

So programming and 3D go hand and hand

Thanks for the insight, though my question was more towards the side of whether or not to switch from a 3d animation degree focusing on 3ds max to a pure math degree (probably Applied Mathematics) rather than the difference between 3d and coding (a computer sciences degree is basically out for me... not that much interest in it to spend that long in school). I am already minoring in Applied Mathematics, but part of me is feeling like I would be better suited to, and benefited more by the pure math degree rather than getting more training in a software I already know. Honestly, I could use more training in modeling/texturing techniques, but I really have been finding much more satisfaction in using FumeFX and Rayfire, and more recently learning Houdini. I even find basic modeling easier in Houdini due to the procedural nature, though I haven't gotten into anything complex like a person or other detailed model.

Pie in the sky job, I would love to spend my days figuring out how to make the software do really cool things and solve problems that other artists are having. The Drama Cam tutorial on my site is a prime example of exactly that instance. I saw a problem an artist was having with a Ground Rush effect they were getting due to the camera moving from a high altitude to a low one in the shot. I thought about it for a minute when I saw the problem and was able to see that there would be a solution using some math on the motion channels. After a day or two worth of work (it was spread out over a week, but the work was really only a day or two) I had a working prototype that would allow an artist to adjust the effect, either nullifying it or amplifying it. I would also like to work as an artist, building scenes and stuff, but I think that I may be best suited to figuring out how to fix problems for other artists who have much more skill than I in a given field.

[Macha]

Just do pure maths then.

By the time you realize what other cool stuff you can do and how unpredictable a career in vfx is you'll have the option of doing whatever you like! Not so the other way around.

You probably like this stuff:

http://physbam.stanford.edu/~fedkiw/

Hopbin: I thought that was a very good explanation you gave there.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Macha

[Adam Ferestad]

Thanks Marc. I was starting to think the same thing, but knowing the volatility in a VFX career, I wanted to be sure that it was the right decision. It also takes a whole lot of classes off of my plate doing that. I suppose I could still take a couple 3d courses to strengthen my skills and ignore the rest of the program. I will be scheduling my fall classes soon, so I am glad I asked on here.

On a side note, that stuff was amazing and looked to be along the lines of what I want to do. Plus, the picture at the bottom of the girl with the chinchilla was adorable. My fiancée and I have 3 chins, and they are just the most adorable things ever.

[pclaes]

I think in your position I would either:

*) finish the degree you started in 3d but consider doing a Masters in Math afterwards. That way you stack your qualifications and a Masters is a good thing to have.

*) switch to the math degree and do an MSc in Visual Effects afterwards.

More mathematics will only help you, especially if you enjoy it. I found that for myself I learned the math alongside the 3d (and still do). Often we would learn something new in math and I would go off implementing it and testing it in Houdini (vopsops and vex tend to lend themselves very well for that kind of thing). That worked out quite well, because by the time exams came around I was already using most of it in effects work anyway. This is especially true for vector and matrix math, interpolations and curves and light equations.

Different people learn in different ways, I noticed for myself I am a very visual learner. Something sticks much better in my brain if I can practically implement it or visualize it. I'm not so great at pure abstract concepts. Although over time you can read a paper that is written in a more scientific way and translate it into pieces of knowledge or math/physics that you are familiar with. I find that often papers are written more convoluted than the subject they are actually presenting.

In regards to coding/programming, it is all about practise, patience and given yourself a bit of time to progress. This is my progression over the last 7 years:

*) I started with particle expressions in Maya (before undergraduate degree),

*) then more mel scripting (before and during 1st year undergraduate),

*) then C programming (1st year undergrad),

*) then C++ programming (2nd year undergrad),

*) then switch to houdini and a lot less programming (because you rarely have to) (2nd & 3rd year undergrad),

*) then more vops and vex (3 year undergrad),

*) then more python and back to C++ (during Master of Science) and HDK (1st year working in production -> more R&D and tool dev).

*) then more vex/vops and python (2nd year in production -> more shot work).

I do not consider myself to be advanced in any of the coding, but I am proficient enough in most to become advanced when required for a specific project.

Personally I do enjoy the art as well as the math and the tool development. If I had to give percentages to myself I would say I am 35-40% art geared and 60-65% tech based. You should try to pinpoint your own balance too, it will help you find the type of work you enjoy the most and for the longest stretches of time. And be honest about it... for the longest time I was a bit afraid of OO programming... I have no idea why, but it was a very irrational fear. So I faced it and forced myself to get over it. But whilst doing that I also found out I do not desire to be a full time programmer and spend the entire day writing code.

Good luck with your decision!

[Adam Ferestad]

What I have been thinking and discussing with my fiancée is that I switch to the applied math B.S. and continue to work in depth on Houdini, learning as much as I can. Then I will try to get some entry level job at an effects house while I work on a masters, likely in whatever math I find myself using the most.

My current feelings are that I can learn the 3d and vfx on my own, but the math is going to be rough to learn without a teacher. Plus, knowing how to use Houdini and make stuff in it is going to be next to useless for me unless I know how to really manipulate it.

[Andz]

Hi Adam,

I'm sorry but I don't really know the equivalent names used in america for math courses, so I'll try to explain my self in general terms. Here in Brazil there are basically 3 different math courses at the universities.

- Math for people who'd like to become junior and senior high school teachers;

- Math for scientists, usually who'd continue in university doing master's, doctor's and phd;

- Math for business like economy and accounting.

When I studied Math, I started the first one, for teachers because that was the only one offered at my local uni. So pretty quickly I switched to another university where they offered the second type I mentioned (for scientists) that they call "bachelor's degree" here and that is where I learned that I knew nothing about math :-) At the first course I did up to Calculus III (multi variables functions, multiple derivatives and integrals, etc), but when I switched to second university I had to go back to a pre-calculus stuff, all because of the way it was handled and what they expected from us students. I'm not even going to compare other topics like Linear Algebra or Analytic Geometry with it's crazy eigenvectors.

Before engaging into math, my whole background was oriented to arts and I got into it because I thought I't would help me develop my own CG tools. I now love math because of it's algebra with proofs, logic, etc. As for usability at my day to day work, I probably use more Physics that actual Math. I do use a lot of Analytic Geometry, but when needed I'm always turning back to them on my physics notes.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Andz

[Adam Ferestad]

Thanks for the input andz. I was looking over course descriptions today, and I am getting so excited to get into these classes. I am going to do Applied Mathematics.

Here is the course requirements for it.

http://www.kent.edu/math/undergraduate/degree-requirements.cfm#MajorGen

I am doing the applied math BS with the applied math concentration. As I said, I will probably go for a masters when i find a job. I am taking calculus 2 this summer and calculus 3 and linear algebra in the fall. I need to figure out what electives to take since I need 2 of them and most of the things on the concentration cover what I will need for my 3d purposes.

[Andz]

Thanks for the input andz. I was looking over course descriptions today, and I am getting so excited to get into these classes. I am going to do Applied Mathematics.

Here is the course requirements for it.

http://www.kent.edu/math/undergraduate/degree-requirements.cfm#MajorGen

I am doing the applied math BS with the applied math concentration. As I said, I will probably go for a masters when i find a job. I am taking calculus 2 this summer and calculus 3 and linear algebra in the fall. I need to figure out what electives to take since I need 2 of them and most of the things on the concentration cover what I will need for my 3d purposes.

I get it now :-) Looks like you applied mathematics is exactly what I was talking about:

Google translation test

But the fun part, actually was the "electives" or optional extra curricular classes:

Extreme Math pr0n :-)

[Adam Ferestad]

We have many of the same classes, and I must say that I have been reading the descriptions on them and I am quite excited to get into some of them. I am just worried about how many I will be able to handle at once. Most of my other required classes have been fulfilled, which means I am looking at taking 2 to 3 math classes per semester. I've never taken that much of a single subject and I am not sure how my brain will react to me trying to put that much new information into it at a time. Here are a few that I'm really looking forward to:

42045 Introduction to Partial Differential Equations (3)

An introduction to Fourier series, Fourier transforms, and partial differential equations. Wave, heat, and potential equations of mathematical physics. Additional topics include Green’s functions and the Method of Characteristics for wave equations.

42031 Mathematical Models and Dynamical Systems (3)

Formulation and analysis of mathematical models for a variety of phenomena. Mathematical methods from optimization, dynamical systems and probability are developed and applied. Modern software tools are utilized.

21001 Linear Algebra with Applications (3) MATH 21001 Syllabus

Systems of linear equations and the associated matrix operations, linear transformations, vector spaces, bases, eigenvectors.

[Andz]

...I am just worried about how many I will be able to handle at once. Most of my other required classes have been fulfilled, which means I am looking at taking 2 to 3 math classes per semester. I've never taken that much of a single subject and I am not sure how my brain will react to me trying to put that much new information into it at a time.

Personally, to me it was ok, and actually very fulfilling to have so many topics alike, so I could see different uses of one idea and actually use that for problem solving on different classes. Some teacher were easier to follow that others, etc.

The hardest part was to find time in my life to actually sit down and put stuff in practice while trying to conciliate my time with the family, work, etc. I remember leaving class many times thinking that i got it all, but wasn't really able to accomplish a single exercise afterwards. Math for me is a lot of brain muscle building, learning and "really" understanding only after many many hours of repetition, and that really eats up a lot of your time.

Actually, thinking about all this as I'm writing, I have to admit that I got to a point there where I was a bit worried about how it was sometimes hard to switch that "thinking mode" off while away from the math subject.

[Adam Ferestad]

The lack of an ability to turn off the thinking mode is already something I face down on a daily basis, so I should be fine there. Also, I do freelance web design, and right now work is depressingly slow, hence all of the time I have to work on Houdini. I have a feeling that time won't be that much of an issue, math doesn't usually take that much repetition for me to get. I don't expect that to be something that is sustained into my upper division classes though. I am planning on doing much of what you did and try to apply what I learn to things in Houdini, but I am still trying to learn where and how to do that so that when I do learn the things, I know right where to go to use it.

[Andz]

...try to apply what I learn to things in Houdini, but I am still trying to learn where and how to do that so that when I do learn the things, I know right where to go to use it.

Just think of all that in general CG terms. Where stuff actually IS inside a software can be found in the help files and from others here at the forum. Abstracting from X or Y tool will lead you to thinking from outside the box... something that my arts background has helped me, and not many teachers from math school understood.

I have decided to get back to uni. after about 15 years aways from school. While working I (or we) tend to search for solution we need at the given moment, so you know what to look for. Different from when you go to school to see stuff that you might need one day (and hope to remember it then). So many of my teachers where really annoyed by my extreme amount of questions like -"What is that used for?", "Where can I apply that?"...

By the way, just to make things clear, I still haven't graduated from math yet. I still annoy one or two teacher once in a while.

[Andz]

Just think of all that in general CG terms.

So many of my teachers where really annoyed by my extreme amount of questions like -"What is that used for?", "Where can I apply that?"...

Quoting my self here, theses questions I had probably means why I refer to my physics books and notes more than from other subjects, because I can visualize where to use the multitude of math formulas. The linear algebra WITH applications that you mentioned will help you a lot with that too.

[Adam Ferestad]

Yeah, I already annoy my teachers like that, though I ended up figuring out what I was asking him. For my drama cam tutorial, I was asking for some help on figuring out the conjugate functions and the calculus and he was having trouble understanding what I was talking about, but he could see that the outcome would have use. I am hoping that all of these classes that have "application" in their descriptions actually cover applications.