Technical and CHARACTER Rigging from 3DBuzz

[stevetwist]

What means "Shortly" ? next week ? in the same month ?

"Shortly" means "shortly" .

Steve

[symek]

"Shortly" means "shortly" .

Steve

Will the character rigging stuff be recorded by character animator/rigger?

[daskog]

Some more sneak previews please! PLEASE!!! =)

[Guest Swann]

Some more sneak previews please! PLEASE!!! =)

Wait, they are recording, Steve, in Sunday, will fly to home so they work like crazy to end as much material as possible.

[Sagroth]

Well, that's an interesting offer coming up.

But to say the truth, I'm not very enthusiastic about the amount of dvds (hence hours) of learning material. I'm interested in would that be a lot of condensed "strict" material or a lot of jokes, talks, laughs, repetitions, whiteboards with washing dishes and chocolate mixing and so on (just like 3DBuzz likes to do it usually)? That's not even a question of spending money for such things, but mainly of time needed to watch that course through. I myself just practically have no time to listen to that gossip.

So, that's the question - the amount of gossip in this product. And another one - the skill level it's aimed for (will it explain on whiteboards things like what animation is, what keyframe is or assume we know that and get to the point).

[Guest Swann]

Well, that's an interesting offer coming up.

But to say the truth, I'm not very enthusiastic about the amount of dvds (hence hours) of learning material. I'm interested in would that be a lot of condensed "strict" material or a lot of jokes, talks, laughs, repetitions, whiteboards with washing dishes and chocolate mixing and so on (just like 3DBuzz likes to do it usually)? That's not even a question of spending money for such things, but mainly of time needed to watch that course through. I myself just practically have no time to listen to that gossip.

So, that's the question - the amount of gossip in this product. And another one - the skill level it's aimed for (will it explain on whiteboards things like what animation is, what keyframe is or assume we know that and get to the point).

Watch Elevator VTM on 3DBuzz (it's free) and you will se what they can do.

[Sagroth]

Watch Elevator VTM on 3DBuzz (it's free) and you will se what they can do.

No doubt that they can do things both ways, but which way would be used in this particular series

4 DVDs of separated techniques without building an actual complex character rig is a dangerous thing

Edited August 30, 2008 by Sagroth

[Guest Swann]

No doubt that they can do things both ways, but which way would be used in this particular series

4 DVDs of separated techniques without building an actual complex character rig is a dangerous thing

One DVD should be Spider Rig, One Vechicle Rig, Two will be about making tools in Python(not only about this), and add to this all operators that are in Houdini for rigging now.

Rigging it's not only one context of Houdini, thats why there will be so many materials. Watch old rigging VTMs from Buzz, rigging it's SOPS,CHOPS,Python and others, and I don't think that you can make it in condenced way.

Look on this from another point, Elevator VTM's are about simple elevator shaft, nothing more, no super hiper rendering, no texturing etc. and it taked 12 hours to explain. This could be done condenced, no white board, no talking, Only arrow on the monitor moving and doing all that stuff. But how much you will understand from this ?

Those VTMs will not be about using Shelf tools, for those look on Digital Tutors. They will be about how to build those tools and your own Auto-rig and to do this eficiently.

BTW, you can find condenced version of this knowledge in Help .

Cheers

Edited August 30, 2008 by SWANN

[ofer]

Will there be an option to download the videos, instead of buying them in DVDs? Like with Digital Tutors. Its much more efficient.

[Nasyrov]

Will there be an option to download the videos, instead of buying them in DVDs? Like with Digital Tutors. Its much more efficient.

I'm agree with Ofer. But they don't like such way:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 2:16 AM

To: info@3dbuzz.com

Subject: Hi! I'm interested in houdini tuts

Hi! I want to buy new houdini rigging dvd's but it's too long to wait them by mail. What about of downloading dvd's after payment?

Thanks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but we do not provide these videos for download.

Sincerely,

Angela

[Sagroth]

SWANN, thanks for the info, these topics sound interesting and somewhat dispel my worries That'd be great to see real-world-scenario implementation of these techniques (not just "that's how it works on sphere, so figure out yourself how to make it useful in real work" like many tutors do).

Btw, I'm not criticizing thorough explanations, but over-explanations and off topic chit-chat which is pretty common in online fundamentals course. By "condensed" I mean there's no half-an-hour explanations of how to use move tool

BTW, you can find condenced version of this knowledge in Help

As soon as it'll work without lags, crashing, errors, missing links and stuff at least half the time

[symek]

I somehow share Sagroth's daubs.

Edited August 30, 2008 by SYmek

[Guest Swann]

I somehow share Sagroth's daubs.

Anyway, I prefer to get this info from Buzz than from Digital Tutors. Atleast you can expect that they don't use Shelf tools, but make explanation like Brian in Fluids video.

And if they do this on the same level as Elevator, well...

Edited August 31, 2008 by SWANN

[Guest Swann]

Propably in monday everything will be clear. To this moment Steve will be in home and all 5 DVD's should be recorded. There will be RadioShow in monday too (if I remember correctly) so Buzz should say something more.

BTW. If you wan't some fun listen Radio Show from April 18th, 2008 on 3DBuzzRadioShow. One of the best their shows.

Edited August 31, 2008 by SWANN

[stevetwist]

But to say the truth, I'm not very enthusiastic about the amount of dvds (hence hours) of learning material. I'm interested in would that be a lot of condensed "strict" material or a lot of jokes, talks, laughs, repetitions, whiteboards with washing dishes and chocolate mixing and so on (just like 3DBuzz likes to do it usually)? That's not even a question of spending money for such things, but mainly of time needed to watch that course through. I myself just practically have no time to listen to that gossip.

Jason and myself have been involved in around 30 hours of FREE Houdini 9.x content (all of which you can see for free, over on 3DBuzz.com), not to mention the 26+ hours of content released so far in the Technical Director series (TD Volumes 1 and 2, released as part of Houdini Fast Track). Name me ONE part of any of those videos where we don't take our work seriously, joking about "dishes" and "chocolate". Yes, we're light hearted... that's what makes our videos so enjoyable, but I personally take my work incredibly seriously.

If you're not enthusiastic about the amount of DVDs and the running time of the content, then I put it to you that you're not enthusiastic about your education, and that's fine. All we can do is offer to help people to develop their skills and learn core techniques. We strive to help people better themselves as Houdini artists and logical thinkers. If you don't want to invest the time to learn what we're offering to teach you, that's fine. You'll find plenty of other places happy to offer you a 2 hour video that will give you a taster... you know, how to use a shelf tool or two (generic, run of the mill solutions), but not provide you with the core knowledge you need in order to solve a variety of problems. Which leads me to another thing:

4 DVDs of separated techniques without building an actual complex character rig is a dangerous thing

How, if you're not willing to learn the CORE techniques, can you honestly hope to ever rig an "actual complex character". I know that some people like the night school approach: "Here's how to rig a generic character in 2 hours". And that's fine... good for them. But they'll never be able to approach a real world rig, because a real world rig is most likely not going to be the same as a generic rig. Without knowing the core techniques, you can't possibly hope to approach a variety of problems. Knowing the core techniques, knowing how something works "under the hood", will allow you to think out of the box. It will allow you to approach even the most obscure of rigs, because you'll be equipped with a toolset - not a final product. But hey, if you're just after a quick fix and wish to only rig generic characters, then that's fine. However, if you want to be able to solve a variety of rigging situations, then you're going to want a solid foundation of the core techniques... a solid foundation that takes hours to learn (hence the quantity of DVDs).

Unfortunately people have used the tired cliche of "quality not quantity" way too much, to the point where people seem to associate these things as mutually exclusive. We strive for both, and I think you'll find most people who take the time to watch our content agree. Every single minute of the Technical Rigging series is focused, quality content, over what I personally believe to be a core area of Houdini's rigging toolset.

Let me give you an example (and a teaser, all in one). The Mirror Capture Weights tool. I know some people, who'd be happy to get the 5 minute run down over the Mirror Capture Weights tool. They'd like to know how at the click of the button they can mirror their weights, and leave it there. However, as part of Technical Rigging 2, we spend over 2 hours discussing this tool in depth (1 and a half hours of whiteboard discussion), talking about the intricacies of how the different behaviours work - equipping you with knowledge that can be applied to the vast majority of mirroring situations. With that knowledge, you'll know when and where to use the different behaviours (a decision that you'll need to make more often than you might think). Someone who knows how to click a tool, will run into issues mirroring capture weights in a "real world" situation. Someone who knows how that tool works under the hood, will quickly solve any of these issues.

Just so you are aware of how strongly opposed I am to your generalisations, assumptions and what verges on ignorance, I actually broke from a very serious recording session in order to jump in here and give you my thoughts. I've taken the time to reply to you, so as I bring this to a close, I ask for you to take the time to reply to me: Point out just ONE place where Jason and myself "gossip" in our videos. Just one place where we don't take the work seriously. I think you'll find you'll come up stuck.

Thanks,

Steve Twist

PS - For those of you interested in the Technical Rigging series, you'll be pleased to know that we've just announced a sneak peak of the advanced vehicle rigging DVD: http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=170317

We'll be announcing more details, along with officially launching the technical rigging series, very shortly.

[digitallysane]

PS - For those of you interested in the Technical Rigging series, you'll be pleased to know that we've just announced a sneak peak of the advanced vehicle rigging DVD: http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=170317

This looks very, very good.

Dragos

[Sagroth]

Steve, thanks for your time to reply.

First of all, I want to say that I'm not trying to abuse you, 3dbuzz, your way of approaching what you do and so on. But I should remind you that in this situation I'm your customer and (let me use another over-used cliche) I'm right.

Jason and myself have been involved in around 30 hours of FREE Houdini 9.x content (all of which you can see for free, over on 3DBuzz.com)

Yeah, that's great you release FREE tutors, unarguable respect to you. The pity is - it's mentioned too many times that 3dbuzz is so generous offering this course for FREE (and not that many times that it's a SideFX order, at least fundamentals course).

Anyway, if you want to know motivations behind my opinion... Once again - that's just my personal opinion. As Jason had mentioned in the beginning of fundamentals course - there're people that hate whiteboard, maybe I'm one of them... I personally prefer explanations parallel to getting familiar with application (not someones ability to draw lines with mouse/tablet... or should I say inability ) So, yeap, I saw the H9 fundamentals course from the very first to the very last video. That's where my opinion comes from (and not out of a will to argue on boards, anti-advertise you or plain ignorant skepticism) - just as a possible customer I'm trying to be sure that when I pay $250 (if I calculate correctly) I won't be disappointed.

What concerns pointing to "not serious videos" - as well as I remember - you joined H9 fundamentals course close to the last third of it or so. I suppose you should watch what was in those first two thirds one day - there you'll find those dishes and chocolate mixings and hence the videos you want me to point out (and not just ONE )

My personal encounter of H9 fundamentals course was just a couple of months ago when I had almost never ever saw H9 before, but I had to switch from Maya practically in no time. I had just a couple of weekends for that. And I was sitting and watching all those "hours of FREE chocolate mixing" with a growing feeling of wasting my time. Yeah, Jason mentioned there that I should "scrub the timelime" for satisfaction, 'cause that's for "new in 3d users"... I didn't for a long time, 'cause I AM new to H9 - I WANT to know about it's scene structure and ideology, so I had to either spend hours getting pieces of valuable info out of "for new in 3d" tons or miss the topic. Then I did scrub... and soon afterwards I shut everything down eventually (but finished watching everything later anyway). What concerns YOUR involvement in those learning videos, I should say that it had brought a lot more order in the material and I hope that's where it'll be heading in this course also.

If you're not enthusiastic about the amount of DVDs and the running time of the content, then I put it to you that you're not enthusiastic about your education, and that's fine.

Well, I won't deny that it's a possible thing that you could know about my enthusiasm better than me But that's not the case.

How, if you're not willing to learn the CORE techniques, can you honestly hope to ever rig an "actual complex character". I know that some people like the night school approach: "Here's how to rig a generic character in 2 hours". And that's fine... good for them. But they'll never be able to approach a real world rig, because a real world rig is most likely not going to be the same as a generic rig. Without knowing the core techniques, you can't possibly hope to approach a variety of problems. Knowing the core techniques, knowing how something works "under the hood", will allow you to think out of the box. It will allow you to approach even the most obscure of rigs, because you'll be equipped with a toolset - not a final product. But hey, if you're just after a quick fix and wish to only rig generic characters, then that's fine. However, if you want to be able to solve a variety of rigging situations, then you're going to want a solid foundation of the core techniques... a solid foundation that takes hours to learn (hence the quantity of DVDs).

You don't understand me correctly. I'm totaly FOR thorough in-depth explanations of every technique of the global topic. What I was saying - those separated techniques won't do much good (in my opinion) if after explaining them you don't show us how to use them in a "complex situation". And that's YOUR message that confused me and made these doubts:

The first 4 DVDs focus on a variety of techniques that apply to all types of character rigging. The ACTUAL character rigging DVD will be released shortly after the first 5 DVDs

Because in my personal learning experience no matter how in-depth explanations would be, if they don't end up in a complex real-world production-like situation - they'll be forgotten. Then SWANN mentioned that there will be actual rigs along the course (spider one at least) - and that suits me. So, if that info is correct, then you should pay more attention to how you approach info for your customers, not to confuse them (and in any case definitely not to abuse them with your own views on the verge of ignorance )

[stevetwist]

I'm gonna try and keep this reply short.

You said it yourself... Jason said in those videos that they were designed for people new to 3D, and as a Maya user, you were not new to 3D. You can't then complain that, because you chose to watch through the videos, that you felt you had somehow wasted your time. It's like me finding some videos over basic mathematics, and complaining that I felt like I wasted my time because I'm very confident with the subject matter already. Ok, so I can understand your desire to try and get the most out of the videos... and that's a good thing, but sometimes that does mean using your initiative, and skipping sections of video if necessary.

As for the dishes and chocolate... I was asking you to point out when we were "Joking" about them. Jason was very serious with his analogy. He uses analogies a lot as a teaching aid. I personally think they're a great idea, and definitely help teach a new concept - by making links to something someone is already very comfortable with. I agree with you - different people learn differently, but at the end of the day, you can't show me a single video where Jason and myself are "joking" or "gossiping". We take this very seriously, and find any suggestion otherwise insulting.

Now, as for the confusion with my earlier post... granted, I maybe wasn't totally clear. But you have to bear in mind that I wasn't making an official product announcement, simply trying to clear up an earlier question. Maybe it would have been better if I'd have said that Technical Rigging 1 through 4 will teach you a variety of core techniques, and that in a later DVD, we'll use those techniques to setup a complete character.

Please, I urge you to check out the sample videos from my earlier link. That will give you a good idea for the direction of our Advanced Vehicle Rigging DVD.

Thanks,

Steve

Oh, and one last thing....

Yeah, that's great you release FREE tutors, unarguable respect to you. The pity is - it's mentioned too many times that 3dbuzz is so generous offering this course for FREE (and not that many times that it's a SideFX order, at least fundamentals course).

Can you please clarify what you mean by this? We were never commissioned, asked, paid or otherwise rewarded by any company (including SideFX) for our involvement in the fundamentals online course, if that's what you were suggesting. If you'd like confirmation, check with Robert Magee. What I find frustrating is the number of people who think that now SideFX have sponsored us, that we're now required to make free training. We've truly invested 100s of hours in the effort to help the community with no one paying us.

[Sagroth]

You said it yourself... Jason said in those videos that they were designed for people new to 3D, and as a Maya user, you were not new to 3D. You can't then complain that, because you chose to watch through the videos, that you felt you had somehow wasted your time. It's like me finding some videos over basic mathematics, and complaining that I felt like I wasted my time because I'm very confident with the subject matter already.

Yeah, no complains about what you've done in fundamentals course. That wasn't useful for me, but I'm in no way saying that's it's bad for everyone. Maybe it's really great for "new in 3d" - just can't judge, especially considering that's a free course, I can't complain about anything at all. I'm just asking if the same "for new in 3d" methods are occupying a lot of hours of this particular Technical Rigging series under discussion, since it's NOT FREE and I'm considering whether to buy it or not. If I scrub through a half-a-dvd out of five-dvds series - that's one thing, if I need to scrub through two dvds for that reason - that'd be $100 waste. And that's my concern I expressed.

I don't mean that if I personally know smth you should cut it out, of course I mean for example an idea to have a "total newbee" by lector's side to repeat some things, continue phrases, mumble things, sleep away, excusing for that... Yeah, I think that's what bugged me most of all in 3DBuzz: if I understand smth, I don't care for that "total newbee" to get it and listening to his repetitions is a waste of time... If I don't understand - I'd rewind and play again, no point in listening to newbee again, since he won't explain either.

but at the end of the day, you can't show me a single video where Jason and myself are "joking" or "gossiping". We take this very seriously, and find any suggestion otherwise insulting.

I won't survive watching this course again to point specifics, sorry I know that doesn't support my position, but I don't need to support it You do

I can just say that I'd subscribed to 3dbuzz portal... wow, five years ago And watched from time to time not only H9 course... And not only 3DBuzz tutorials... And that's my (personal! ) impression to date - 3DBuzz is indeed the most lighthearted tutors producer and often that results into elongated videos, parts of that could be omitted to save time. So, when I hear that you release 5 DVDs course, the reasonable response of my impression is - how much DVDs it'd be without these lightheartness

Please, I urge you to check out the sample videos from my earlier link. That will give you a good idea for the direction of our Advanced Vehicle Rigging DVD.

I did. Talking to you here I know you've done a huge job to make this series and it'll describe in detail how to make this vehicle and how each particular method, used to rig it, works and so on. And these videos support that knowledge and show in-depth approach... And I myself want to get this set.

But consider me a totally unprepared (that didn't talk to you here and even read this topic) who's been told "3DBuzz releases new 5 DVDs series - here're sample clips". And I sit and watch those 50 minutes of samples on my own and only on minute 47 I see smth actually moving and compressing I'd be in shock! For me, unprepared visitor, would be much better to see several minutes of springs compressing, tubes moving, wheels rolling, wires jiggling and hints on thorough "blueboards", explaining the mechanics, to say "wow, I wanna spend many hours to understand that in-depth, so I wanna buy this set", than 50 minutes out of context material where only at the end smth really rigged appears.

I hope you deal with that in official press-release. Good luck!

P.S. And yeah, about that SideFX thing. As well as I remember, in the beginning of H9 fundamentals Jason mentioned that SideFX contacted him and asked to make a course, offered a full version of H9 and so on. And there was a pretty long explanation of commercial side of Houdini - pretty much like a sale presentation. To this moment I though that it was SideFX's order to make this course as a support for it's package. If that's not true - sorry for misunderstanding.

[abvfx]

I understand Sagroth point of view. But it is one i think is not valid. (anymore at least).

I think i would be correct that sagroth's main issue is length. If a training series is so long and all you have to show for it is one rigged Vehicle or two etc. Why does it take so long?

Well i guess you could call me a student (not exclusive) of 3D BuZZ (for many years, originally to learn modelling) and have noticed many things in my time.

Most of all is pretty much the complete extraction of any talk not relating to the topic at hand.

This change happened quite some time ago (back in the day when 3D BuZZ was a pet project), and so anyone who thinks this type of tutition is the current way 3dBuZZ conducts themselves is largely mistaken.

The only time people may feel that there is talk of something not pertaining to the topic is with the use of analogies. Im sorry Sargoth of 3D BuZZ wants to make sure people understand the concepts they are trying to teach.

They don't over-explain, they just provide enough material so that 95% (that is not an official number) of people will understand it. Take the recent elevator tutorials. 12 videos to cover the bridge asset. A certain video ( describing the thought process behind how to setup the cables) was done with the whiteboard technique. This video, which is one of the most important in the whole series is only 6minutes long.

And this would have been assessable to anyone.

What i think is that the fact it is available to anyone also maybe irritates you. I understand your need to get down to the juicy stuff, but 3d BuZZ is a business now, and they have to make their tutorials reach as many people as possible to survive.

But what i think they do better than anyone else is if there is stuff that i already know i can still watch through without getting bored or thinking come on hurry up. Of course this does depend on the content, i don't want to watch videos explaining the basic concepts of 3d. But the great thing is, most of the products let you know what will be covered.

Another thing is lightheartedness is something that is easy and quick to achieve. It doesn't take up alot of time, a second here or there. Mainly 3D BuZZ are people who know how to speak into a microphone well. Im sorry but there are hundred of tutorials that are boring, just for the simple fact of their voice. the content maybe be engaging, but if they are going, "urgh ummm yeah urghh," and speak really slowly its really difficult to learn something because they aren't equipped to teach.

Teaching something doesn't mean you just have to know the topic, you also have to be able to communicate it in an effective way and thats what i think 3dBuZZ does.

if I understand smth, I don't care for that "total newbee" to get it and listening to his repetitions is a waste of time

But that is your problem right there.

One, 3dBuZZ don't repeat something over and over and over and over again. Once or twice is enough and thats what they generally stick to.

The other is your complete apathy for other users. It is selfish for you to expect everyone to be on the same knowledge bar as you. If everyone thought like that, then how would anyone learn anything.

But 3dbuzz doesn't always cater for the total newbie, i think they have found a perfect balance of explaining concepts and procedures that are out of someone bounds and teaching them in an effective and efficient manner.

They don't compromise on the teaching nor on the length of explanation.

They may go through projects that will take some time, but that is better than skipping over content that alot of people would find useful.

I don't feel like a newbie in Houdini, (unexperienced? yes) but if there were more people like you that 3D BuZZ would eventually have to listen to, then i would find myself at the same level forever, because they wouldn't have to spend time on something you didn't want.

I mean if you look at it this way, because you have no regard for anyone else training to learn, you have issues with the training.

Thats pretty selfish.