XSI Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 (edited) Well, cellchuk and djorzgul I disagree. The reason I posted this forum in the first place is because I found a dramatic paradox in the attitude of Houdini users contrasted with the quality of user output. This also isn't a VS forum so it should not be measured as such. Everyone replying to my initial post has been good though, so no complaints as far as this post is concerned. If you want real impartiality, go to XSIBases forum and type in Houdini. You will see posts asking "is Houdini really better?" and the replies are mostly yes - try that here about Maya and you will get condescensions and snide remarks (that aren't entirely undeserved). Edited December 19, 2007 by XSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 (edited) ...er not quite. To carry the analogy further, we're the ones manning the great big fishing trawlers catching gobs of fish for money, while the 'true artists' are the ones sitting in the wee rowboat trying to catch something else for themselves. There's nothing inherently wrong with either, but coming to the conclusion that because we do commercial art (ie art for someone elses vision and getting paid for it) doesn't make us artists means that you're asking the wrong question.M My instinct was telling me not to include that, as analogys tend to foster misinterpretations. What I was saying is that you cant "ride two horses" by saying "were all to busy doing Pro FX work to do conventional 3d stuff" Because if you are all, more or less, doing pro FX work than neither Houdini or its user-base could be considered arbiters of conventional 3d stuff, like modeling and animation. Which supports my assumption that Houdini attracts this type of artist, and not the side-step that we to busy doing work to create pretty pictures. Edited December 19, 2007 by XSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 Netvudu, you remind me of a Max animator I once met. The thrust of his personality was that animation was the most important part of any production as, he reasoned, "it doesn't matter how good the model is, if its animated poorly it will look shit" (or something). Its tempting for any artist to conclude that his contribution is above all others. Even though a case could be made for the objective virtues of one art over another in a production environment, its good practice not to indulgence. In one final fit of fallacious reductionism you conclude that "The rest are just button pushers to my eyes." Well you could fairly conclude that animator are also "button pushers" or any one who has ever used a computer!. You don't have the patience for modeling? I have none for animation...so I must be less a man in this light! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Well I must congratulate you on being the bearer of the first 'Houdini users are elitist' opinion that I've ever met. And that our attitude is a bit of a problem, which is a bit of a surprise to me to be honest. Quite frankly you've been nothing but belligerent since you came on this forum and I'm fairly surprised that most people have held their tongues this long. I'm wondering what you're doing here actually. It doesn't sound like anything we say will change your opinion, so why be here at all? Or are you just trolling? So I'm going to reiterate the point for the last time. Most people on this forum are paid professionals, meaning we don't have time to sit around and show each other our etchings. I'm fairly sure that a lot of us could create good looking art if we had the time or the inclination, but sadly we're too busy. You can read into that whatever you like, but I'm quite content knowing that I'm eminently employable in any fx company on around 6 continents. Do I want to ever use any other software? No, because I can't stand them... but that's my personal opinion and I certainly am not going to try dissuade you from using another piece of software. I like my job security and I like the freedom Houdini gives me to play around with the stuff I love. If you want to learn Houdini, then welcome. If you're just here to argue semantics and try and make everyone look bad then I'm not sure you're going to find what you're looking for here. M P.S. What is a VS forum? P.P.S. Not sure if this is beneficial, but this is what most of us are doing while you're arguing 'What makes art?'. Feel free to join us if you will: http://odforce.net/temp/Marc_H_07_reel_xvid.avi (it's an old edit, but you get the idea). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realer Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 reading all this i really dont get the point.. why 3d software must allways create religion-like behaviours, i mean lets face it: i never heard workers comparing their tools like "hey whats so good about your skrewdriver, why dont you start using my hammer instead?? its the best tool ever!!" there is no ONE 3d software that does everything good, thats why there are so many packages out there still.. and even if somewhen each 3d package will be featurewise the same they will still differ in their approach and interface so still users will prefer one above the other like people drive different cars instead of all the same ; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 reading all this i really dont get the point.. You might be right, yup. Me neither. Perhaps we give too much creedence what what obviously a question designed to be somewhat inflammatory. *Jason gets back to his real work now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 Yes Marc I'm a troll...you missed your calling...you should have been a detective. Most of my posts have been replies to other posts, not just restating my position out of arrogance. Heres my work flow - I write a post with no belligerence intended - my post gets misunderstood ad nauseam - then I have to reply to people explaining why i not the ass the think I am. Marc, your contribution is not necessary, you like me, come here voluntary. You needn't contribute or read anything, just let the the post die a natural death when everybody is done with it. If you chose to contribute, as you have done, then for Christ sake point out why I'm wrong...not just that I'm wrong. If I think a poster is wrong I explain to them why I think there wrong - with reasoning. If you think this is belligerent then I'm belligerent . Its not so much that I wont change my opinion - more that I haven't read anything to change it. Thats the key difference you confuse with belligerence. Ive had discourse with people that have enlightened me on some facts, for sure, but noone has taken apart what I saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 realer, this is fair. For example, I started out on max 5, moved over to Maya 5, and am now on XSI 5. One thing it has tought me is that there is no killer app. I still miss some of Maxs poly tools! and who admits to liking Max...not many. I am even considering checking out Modo or Silo or if at all possible Mirai for dedicated modeling. Theres no point being religious about app...technology moves on and changes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Marc, your contribution is not necessary, you like me, come here voluntary. You needn't contribute or read anything, ... Well, in fact Marc and I both feel compelled to participate in these types of discussion because we are the co-founders of odforce and this site was built to be frequented by fun, polite, professional, mature artists - if you were the host of this site would you not feel similarly? Re-read your entry post on this thread and you tell me how it comes off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 (edited) Will he wasn't complaining about the entry post....never brought it up. The entry post was more aggressive that the rest...this ill admit, but i did go through x amount of forums which were silaging of apps that produce stunning content both professionally and non professionally And if haven't said a bad word about Houdini yet...I'm in no position too. I even took Marc up on his offer of producing some Houdini art. I did realise he was Admin, but his contributions were as any other - voluntary. Edited December 19, 2007 by XSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitallysane Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Do not feed the trolls, people. I'd suggest some admin just lock this thread. There are lots of stuff to discuss instead of feeding arrogant trolls. Dragos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherm Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 what if Picasso were still alive...what app would he have chosen to use? I think he'd not care much about that as long as his art comes out good. just a humble opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realer Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 well, actually this thread had one good result: we got to see Marcs demoreel :shocking: i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Amion Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 This is a very interesting discussion. I hope I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlowell Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 (edited) I don't mean to feed the troll but I STILL LIKE 3DS MAX!!! I think it's a great modeling tool, and also has some great out of the box lighting and rendering stuff. My problem initially was that I was trying to use it as an all-around package meaning animation / rigging / particles / texture effects / compositing / scripting. For that stuff I wasn't as successful, the gigs were all low-end, and overall it was a very frustrating workflow. However, the benefit that I've seen from using Houdini and being a part of the Houdini community is the fact that people are actually open to new ideas, the gigs are all high-end, and the gigs as well as people are all professional. In other communities you are your demo reel. Why? Because everyone knows it takes custom code to do anything innovative with the other software apps. XSI, still waiting on your demo reel, I want to see some great artwork .... it's not fair to critique artwork without a little justification. Maybe you can show the Houdini community what we need to strive for to be as good of an artist as yourself?? realer, this is fair.For example, I started out on max 5, moved over to Maya 5, and am now on XSI 5. One thing it has tought me is that there is no killer app. I still miss some of Maxs poly tools! and who admits to liking Max...not many. I am even considering checking out Modo or Silo or if at all possible Mirai for dedicated modeling. Theres no point being religious about app...technology moves on and changes... Edited December 19, 2007 by andrewlowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Yes Marc I'm a troll...you missed your calling...you should have been a detective...<snip>... You may have missed it, but that was my subtle way of telling you to tone it down. This discussion can continue since it seems like people are interested in continuing. But if your snide tone continues then I'll have to close the thread. In other words keep it civil. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIguel P Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 perhaps one could invite more of the houdini grandmasters to show their demos, since they are really hard to find That would be great. Nice reel Marc! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 what if Picasso were still alive...what app would he have chosen to use? I think he would've stuck to Absinthe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherm Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I think he would've stuck to Absinthe. nice one Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlowell Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 http://www.derivativeinc.com/company/company.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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