sibarrick Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Would anyone be interested in a hair modelling system implimented in Houdini as a set of sop assets ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Marengo Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Sign me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Tough question, Simon. I think I might be speaking for everyone if I just said YES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibarrick Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 Just curious Mario, is there anything you are not interested in, Houdini/CG wise at least? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibarrick Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 Well that's encourging, it's just something I'm tooling around with for kicks at the moment, it's about half way through as yet so I can't post anything . I'm basing it on a Sig paper from 2002. As a concept it would allow you to define large scale bundles, with key strands that were modelled manually and then subdivided down to refine the level of detail where you wanted it. There will be some fairly simple parameters like twist and scale, and the ability to wrap key strands around each other or other dummy strands. From there it can be extended with anything that might make it better... The idea is that it uses Houdini's proceduralism to create a work flow to model hair, rather than trying to simulate the whole thing with particles or some such. Any comments about the suitability of this type of approach would be welcomed.. to me I like the control it gives you but obviously it involves much manual intervention than particle methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Marengo Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Just curious Mario, is there anything you are not interested in, Houdini/CG wise at least? Uhmmmm.... Nope. It's all good. [EDIT] Actually... change that. There's one thing I 'm categorically not interested in: modelling! (And by modelling I mean pulling points to make a shape; not coming up with a dynamic system for modelling hair... very different things!). I can do it well and all, but it mostly just bores me to tears. [/EDIT] I'm basing it on a Sig paper from 2002. As a concept it would allow you to define large scale bundles, with key strands that were modelled manually and then subdivided down to refine the level of detail where you wanted it. Ooooo... that sounds pretty involved. You don't think you'll need to resort to the HDK for something like that? (I'm thinking the dynamics/collision alone will need some kind of ODE solver at least, no?). But then I've been looking at some of the stuff you've been doing with off-the-shelf OPs and, if anyone can pull it off, it's you! Go Simon! P.S. I think I have the 2002 proceedings lying around somewhere; but do you know if that paper is available online? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 This sounds similar to that old CHOP network hair demo that came with Houdini a few years ago... (or grass... or whatever), only much better So, I'd say yes... bring it on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDunadan Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Guess you're talking about this one. http://graphics.usc.edu/~taeyong/papers_0291_final.pdf I only skipped the paper some time ago, but if I rember it correctly this was mainly dealing the actual modeling / creation of the hair, compared to those comb/cut style modeling as found in shave and haircut or using only splines. The animation part is yet again a completly different issue that would follow and would definitly require and ODE solver that prefably could handle as well stiff ODEs Would be cool if this modeling approach could be done with Houdni's OP's and I'd love to see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibarrick Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 Yes that's the paper, the idea would be to just create a modelling system that allows you to quickly define a "hair style" but the dynamics etc I'd leave til H7 dynamics show up. Although I can envisage a few fake dynamics being used. The reason I was interested in it was that I've done similar "systems" for modelling vessels, whereby you basically make a bunch of tools that are linked up in designed manner don't try and solve the whole problem in one sop. Lots of attribute passing and so on to build up what you need, this allows for styling etc. then at the end the whole model appears magically..... I think this gives the best balance of control for the artie types and eases the pain for people like me who get bored pressing to many button to get something done that they know they could automate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatrixNAN Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Hey, I am all for this. I know alot of people have been asking for it. I have been wanting it myself. So yeah go for it. Cloth, Fur, Muscles, and Insert ISO params, bandsaw, knife tool are probably the biggest complaints from people coming from other software packages. You would be addressing those concerns. Cloth has been taken care of by Syflex and Sidefx is taking care of the Muscles but it must not be done yet. Cheers, Nate Nesler P.S. This would be a big help to the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekenny Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 I took a quick look at the paper. I like this part: "However, in reality when hair moves, hair/hair interactions cause hair cluster to change dynamically, from large coherently moving clusters to independently moving strands, and vice versa. Simulation of such dynamic clustering effects is a challenging problem. The preservation of user-defined style raises another issue. Currently, we do not know of any animation technique that can handle this complexity." Nice. Anyone doing any work with longish hair will agree with the above statement regardless of how the hair was modeled. At a base level, the entire problem should be considered not just the construction of the hair. The key, IMHO, is for Sidefx to continue to release a strong package which has a completely thought out tool set regardless what it is doing. Beit a better compositor, dynamics, cloth, hair etc. To release something which has not be fully developed will only sour the user's experience with the package. -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibarrick Posted July 27, 2004 Author Share Posted July 27, 2004 Can't say I have any answers for that either. I'm about half way through implimenting a modelling, styling system. Naturally it will be procedural so it may be possible to add animation controls in at various levels. I think that it's a big issue and trying to solve both issues motion and modelling all at once is too big. My approach goes like this, find the cleanest quickest and most flexible modelling approach first. Once you understand the geometry and the requirements of the modelling process that might help inform the animation rigging dynamics process. If you hit a dead end go back to the beginning and make changes that remove the blockage. Apart from that until dynamics show up I can't do much about it anyway. Still I know for a fact that dynamics are well on the way, in H7.0.136 there are some big hints as to what is coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Hey there, With some of the latest talk on hair in the forum, has there been any further development on your hair solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibarrick Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 Yeah it's getting there, I just need to do one more thing and I'll have a beta with limited functionality, I'll hopefully then work it up a bit and add some more functionality. I think it could be an interesting thing, it's quite an odd mix of otl and plugin, by which I mean in order to get it to work I kinda need to force the user to work a particular way - like a plugin - but just to get it to work obviously it needs to be a whole bunch of custom sops. I've done this sort of thing before at work, but then I'm always on hand to eplain how to use it. The interesting thing will be can anyone else but me use it without help. The other interesting thing will be whether anyone else thinks the whole exercise is worth while.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meshsmooth Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 But we can phone you up though, 24 hrs a day, and demand your assistance, that goes without saying rite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sibarrick Posted September 25, 2004 Author Share Posted September 25, 2004 Sure, here's my number 666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spice Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I took a quick look at the paper. I like this part:"However, in reality when hair moves, hair/hair interactions cause hair cluster to change dynamically, from large coherently moving clusters to independently moving strands, and vice versa. Simulation of such dynamic clustering effects is a challenging problem. The preservation of user-defined style raises another issue. Currently, we do not know of any animation technique that can handle this complexity." Nice. Anyone doing any work with longish hair will agree with the above statement regardless of how the hair was modeled. At a base level, the entire problem should be considered not just the construction of the hair. The key, IMHO, is for Sidefx to continue to release a strong package which has a completely thought out tool set regardless what it is doing. Beit a better compositor, dynamics, cloth, hair etc. To release something which has not be fully developed will only sour the user's experience with the package. -k 12914[/snapback] Sounds interesting... The group I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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