RH Linux 8

[TheUsualAlex]

Whooohooo! RH Linux 8 is out!

It's looking sweet to me! Much much nicer interface.

[Szymon]

How about Houdini compatibility?

[JColdrick]

Just downloaded this and shall likely install tonight. A word of warning to all - the option to NOT install GRUB/LILO/whatever in the MBR is now hidden in the "advanced" button - important to know this since if you're a dual-booter like me - you don't want to lose Windoze(or do I?)!

Cheers,

J.C.

[JColdrick]

To any curious Linux-types...

I got RH8 installed - went quite well. I just purchased a new P4 2.4GHz and 1 gig DDR memory along with the latest and greatest motherboard, USB2 and a GeForce 4Ti4600, so I was a little hesitant about problems installing all that new stuff with RH. Turned out quite well. It still had trouble installing XFree properly with the new Geforce card - I couldn't get a desktop with 24bit working during the install(grrr), but I ended up replacing XFree with nvidia drivers anyway...for the first time I had to compile my nvidia drivers, but it worked flawlessly and installed and works fine so far. A really nice thing is an added interface to changing your desktop setting res/bit depth on the desktop! Yay! This has always been such a hassle, editing freakin' XF86Config files.... Worked well! Also - it detected and config-ed my wheel mouse correctly without any fiddling - again a first for me with Redhat.

I like the look - despite all the controversy out there with the Linux-geeks about Redhat "taking over" the desktop - I think it's not only smart, but it's essential to helping Linux get a stronger foothold. Other than the still-overly complicated Start menu selections, the desktop looks really clean and sharp. I personally don't like the big fat icons, but these are a minor annoyance for me(at least they don't bob up and down like frickin' OSX!) and I know many people like that look.

Haven't had a chance to take Houdini for a run yet. I do know there are some issues with programs that don't support that new universal language thingie - but I doubt Houdini will have issues and there is a workaround with the LANG envar anyway...

Cheers,

J.C.

[TheUsualAlex]

Wow. Thanks John! I can't wait to get my RHL 8 up and running. After I get my CPUs, that is...

Just burned RHL8 ISO to my CD.

[Szymon]

Let us guys know if Houdini works ok with RH 8.

[JColdrick]

OK - I've had some time to do some research, and a little steaming. :/

Essentially there are two outstanding problems with Houdini + RH8.

One is the issue of the window manager grabbing Alt-mouseclick keys(needed for adding keyframes and other things). The default window manager is some piece o' CRAP called metacity. It's simply NOT ready for primetime. Why Redhat/Gnome 2 chose to make this the default wm is beyond me. Essentially there are *very* few config abilities in this wm - admirable that they want to make Linux easy for Aunt Millie, but please - ALWAYS allow the power user to easily get at stuff. Anyway - I've examing metacity's source code - and there it is - Alt-Mouseclicks are simply grabbed and used - you can't get around it. Not only that, but turning off Metacity so you can get at either sawfish(under Gnome2) or KDE is *not* simple - there's no GUI for it. I've yet to do it, but I'm told:

********

Currently, the only way to switch window managers is to kill the one that's running, start the window manager of your choice and save your session. Example:

'killall -9 metacity; sleep 5; sawfish &' and then save your session.

*********

I've also been told even this doesn't work since metacity is so "aggressive" - but I'll post when I try this. Alternatively you could log in as someone else and edit the gnome dir in the user's home. Alas, docs are sparse on this since a lot of things changed with Gnome 2. :/ I've also noticed a post from a Maya user out there with the same complaint...seems like the FX industry doesn't register on RH's radar screen...

The other problem is more serious - an apparent out-and-out bug or compatibility problem with one of Houdini's popup requestors and either the wm or the nvidia drivers with my geforce4 card. I'll keep you posted on this - could be a buffer problem. When you try to quit houdini with an unsaved hip - it locks up. Same thing with lock/unlock a sop. This is the same popup code being used. Looking into it...

Right now? I'd hold off until things get a little more configurable. Our other workstations are running RH7.3 and they work fine.

I'll post again when I get a little farther...

Cheers,

JC

[miguel m]

I think, after hearing John's troubles with RH8, that the FX industry should look for other distros that aren't so much bloated, buggy, etc. I think some better built distros like Debian, with pro users in mind, or others much better worked out and more open source oriented like SuSE should be the way to go.

But that's just me, i guess.

[TheUsualAlex]

Hmm... From what I have heard (somewhere...), RHL seems to be a very good distro... I guess that could be wrong.

I am only using RH distro because that's seem to be what the CG industry is using...

Cheers.

ALex

[JColdrick]

Well, RH8 is actually a fairly big change for Redhat. I would describe a lot of the problems I've been having as "teething problems" for both RH and Gnome2. The whole issue of what a "good" distro is unfortunately tainted with politics and a lot of personal opinion. Like Alex I've only ever used Redhat because it's been approved by those that sell the tools I use. I've heard many hardcore users say that Debian is better, or that SUSE is better...but in the end I just want something to work that doesn't have support saying "we don't officially support that" on the other end of the phone. That's Redhat, like it or leave it. I wouldn't dump them because the first release of RH8 has a lot of issues - I'll just keep using RH7.3. It works great!

Meanwhile, I'm working with SESI on trying to track down the one nasty lockup, and the windowmanager issue just needs tweaking. I'll post the instructions once I figure it out.

In fact, politically, I think Psyche is the first distro to really seriously address one of the biggest problems with Linux gaining desktop acceptance - there's *too* much choice - too many opensource projects that easily overwhelm new Linux users("Hmm, shall I use KMail, Balsa, Evolution...oh - what do you mean Evolution is a Gnome app? What's Gnome? I thought I was using Sawfish?"). I think it's a step in the right direction, but they went two steps back by wiring Metacity into the first release, IMHO.

Even better, they should have waited a couple of months and hammered out these config issues.

Cheers,

JC

[danteA]

You can't change your window manager by changing the file /etc/sysconfig/desktop to say DESKTOP="GNOME" ?

[JColdrick]

OK - things are working now. I'm going to paste in the solution I just sent to SESI regarding both the key equiv issue, and the lockup. Sorry about the formatting - pasted from my 80 column mail program...

Oh, btw Dante - Gnome is already the running desktop - the problem is Metacity *under* Gnome2. The method you describe is the way you would change to KDE - I'm not 100% if that's the same now - RH is making it *really* hard to use anything other than Gnome2/metacity...however I want to put Gnome2 through it's paces so I don't want to use KDE this time around...

Here goes:

OK! Good news - problem has been tracked down! As my gut told me(luv

that gut ), the problem lies with *Metacity*. I managed to turn it

off(no easy task) and run sawfish, and not only can I now get rid of the

wm grabbing Alt-Mouseclicks, but the lockup has disappeared. I went

back to Metacity, and the lockup returned - that's the culprit, not

Opengl or drivers. Lucas, I've attached a gdb capture under metacity

for this so you can have it, at least, for what it's worth.

So, until RH releases upgrades for metacity *and* for Gnome 2 to allow

switching window managers using a GUI, I would suggest that RH8.0 is

not, in a vanilla install out of the box, compatible with Houdini. You

need to do some administrative tasks to get it to work properly.

Note that for some people that have upgraded from an older version of

RH, they may not have this trouble. Certain old config files lying

about may keep metacity from running in an old account.

However, you *can* run Houdini in RH8 - the task is to use another

window manager other than Metacity, or switch completely to KDE. I

haven't attempted the latter, but I know there is not a simple GUI to it

yet, unlike previous releases of RH. This will likely change, but until

then do a google search - it can definitely be done, but it's a specific

solution to RH8.

To switch to sawfish from metacity:

1. Install sawfish! This is *not* installed by default. Check disk 3

- I think it's there, or possibly disk 2. Note that nice "GnomeRPM"

program is *gone* - there's a user friendly but fairly crippled app from

Redhat now - it only lists what *they* think you need. You'll need to

navigate the directories and used good old "rpm -i".

2. log in as yourself. Enter the following:

killall metacity;sawfish

3. There will be a flicker, and as long as you're still stable(see

below), do a "ps -e" and verify that metacity is *not* running and

sawfish is.

4. Enter the following in a shell:

gnome-session-save

5. That's it! Log out, log in again, and you should be running

sawfish. If you want to change your default setup(i.e.what apps are

running when you log in, shells up or not, etc.), then arrange things

the way you want, and enter gnome-session-save again(there *may* be an

option to do this on logout - there used to be, anyway, but I don't

recall if they've removed this).

6. The Sawfish prefs are *hidden* - go to prefs, and look under

"Extras" - there should be a folder in there with sawfish preferences.

You need to fiddle with the key equivs/windows and turn off "M-LMB" and

M-MMB" so you can add keyframes in Houdini. If these config apps don't

run - it means that sawfish isn't running!

Caveats:

Some people will tell you that this is wrong. Some say you need to

enter:

killall -9 metacity; sleep 1;sawfish

This may or may not work for you. "sleep" is there in order to allow

metacity to cleanly quit, and leave "room" for sawfish to start.

Problem is, depending on how fast your cpu is, gnome 2/metacity

agressively starts up again! That's what happened on my P42.4Ghz

system, so I left out the sleep. However, if you get a message that

"you can only run one window manager at a time" - this means sawfish is

trying to start up while metacity is still running. Keep fiddling - it

works eventually, depending on lunar tides or your cat's hairballs...:/

Also, the shell you entered this in *may* lock up starting sawfish.

That's OK - as long as you can still open another shell and verify that

sawfish is there and metacity ain't - don't worry. Enter the save

session command.

What does this do? It makes a file called "session" in ~/.gnome2.

This is what you want to run when gnome2 starts up - and you should see

"sawfish" in there. This file is not easily made any other way. You

may be able to simply enter the line referencing sawfish in a file

called "session", stick it in ~/.gnome2 and try that - honestly I didn't

bother since it may end up being like a 123.cmd that doesn't have

anything in it - you may have a pretty blank desktop on startup. I used

this method instead.

Sorry to be so verbose - but you know me. Also, this was a process

I had to frig around with for a while to get it to "take" - so I wanted

to make sure users are aware of that. It may well work first time for

many.

Cheers,

JC

[riviera]

I don't understand why you're having problems switching the desktop environment, as you can easily specify your preferred one at login (I always use KDE, as I think it's less resource hungry than gnome -- and you can change the prefs to use the Win key instead of Alt to adjust the windows).

There's also a small app somewhere in the start menu to change the preferred environment.

For me, the biggest problem with 3d software on Linux (meaning Maya and Houdini is the system library incompatibility issues; for example you can't run Maya on anything else than rh7.1 as it needs specific versions of system libraries. But perhaps I'm just too unlucky as it seems none of you guys ever had a problem with this.

imre

[Szymon]

So, short question: Have anyone of you had luck with upgrading RH 7.x to 8.0 without any troubles?

[MG]

Szymon, I use RH7.3 and Houdini works great. Except for the ALT-grabbing, which can be over-ridden by pressing-holding CTRL aswell.

I think the industry should consider BSD.

[Jason]

You can unbind the Alt+ grabbing in the control panels, BTW..

[JColdrick]

Hey all - sorry I still have trouble finding time web browsing forums(I prefer mailing lists! ).

Riviera - yup sorry - you're right - if you install KDE and are willing to use it you can indeed switch to it with an interfface. That's my error - I've been installing so many systems lately I missed the fact that I hadn't installed KDE. I prefer Gnome overall - and I definitely wanted to give Gnome2 a run for it's money. KDE is getting better IMHO, but I still prefer Gnome(current issues aside). Also, RH8 still makes using anything other than Gnome/metacity much harder - it's all more hidden to the average user. And the Maya issues - yes - Maya has always been more fussy on Linux than Houdini. For instance - Maya needed the utility "fam" - Houdini's always been fine without it.

Szymon - I've *never* personally had a trouble-free upgrade with Redhat. It's caused so much grief so often that I've stopped doing it. Current messages I've seen online indicate that *some* users have been sucessful, but many continue to have grief - usually associated with mods. In my books - use the current version you're running until you can't stand it, then buy a new system and install a fresh release! We're still running RH6.2 with 7.1 and 7.3 - they all play very well together. The time spent struggling with the issues usually works out to be as long as if you back up your data, install freshly, and reinstall apps and data - so I'd rather do without the cursing and stress.

I still maintain that if I had to decide on a production-ready version of RH to use - I'd use 7.3 over 8.0. There are bug upgrade releases for metacity that now allow you to disable grabbing the Alt-mouseclick keys, but that doesn't help with the lockout problem with Houdini. I've also had serious troubles with the attitudes of the guy who writes metacity - he seems to perceive all the apps in the world as "broken" because they don't share his vision of what a wm is supposed to do. This is prevalent amongst many Linux wm coders - and is bad news...

Cheers

J.C.

[miguel m]

to add to the upgrading process, I never do upgrades to X.0 releases, as they usually have more new bugs or incompatibilities with older software than new features. Usually, by the time a X.1 comes out, many bugs have been ironed out (thanks in part to the impatient, i know) and developers have had time to test their programs with the new X release.

It's just like it happens with M$ products, one must allow a few service packs before trying to upgrade.

Again, thanks to the impatient souls , we all owe you our systems stability

[miguel m]

btw, for redhat 7.x, there are about 300 or 400 Mb in fixed or new rpm's to download. So I suggest to check those out before throwing 7 altogheter because of a problem that might be easily fixed without moving to 8.0

there's a CD image with all fixes to 7.2 and 7.3, uni and multiproc at this website

[Stremik]

Where can I get RH7.3?