Too many online ressources?

[Theis J]

Hi guys,

I'm sorry for my English. It's not that good, but anyway I'll try to start a debate about online resources in Houdini and i hope you can follow the context.

Let me start to say, that I have the greatest respect regarding Vizy Acky, which really go into depth with so many topics and as an online student, you got the feeling that Garman is a very very passionated instructor that likes what he do, which make it interesting to follow the lectures. Also the free tutorials from sidefx.com and Peter Quint's learning resources is a really great way to learn more about Houdini and off cause also the houdini documentations.

In the last year. I've noticed some web companies, have started to provide, in a lot of cases, very expensive Houdini learning resources. But is it worth all the money and your time? I'm concerned that some of the resources might not cover some of the very essential and very crucial steps that are important to know about Houdini. I recently purchased an online learning resource, that didn't helped me much more than a free masterclass from Sidefx.com could do, and I thought it was waste of my time and money. I think it's important to have a debate about the learning materials. I know it's the free market and all that. You can't stop people from making any online resources and make a profit out of it, but do you think Houdini is going to be more and more like Maya, 3D max etc. where too many cooks have spoiled the broth with endless learning resources that really not always are any good compared to the price?

- Theis

[Macha]

do you think Houdini is going to be more and more like Maya, 3D max etc. where too many cooks have spoiled the broth with endless learning resources that really not always are any good compared to the price?

It is easy to argue for "more of everything leads to more of something good" but I think that there is a lot to be said for small, agile teams and communities that aren't running in a high viscosity mass of everything.

So, actually I would agree with that.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Macha

[Marc]

oh how times have changed. 5 years ago this conversation would be unheard of. As it is though; I think more is better than none, but I agree that it will lead to more work from the user to separate the good from the bad.

[hopbin9]

I signed up with Digital Tutors last month and so far I've been learning tons from their online videos. It's well organized, you can do it at your own speed and you will learn things that you wouldn't learn on your own, but their Houdini resources are dated. Most of their Houdini material hasn't been updated in a few years, and they don't cover everything. They seem more interested in teaching Maya, but since I'm a new Houdini user it's ideal for me. Once I've completed their Houdini courses, then I'll be moving onto ZBrush and some other apps.

With that said, specialized training in 3D is a difficult market. Most companies struggle to handle the wide range of topics, the sales are small and the cost of marketing those materials is high. We should be happy that we actually have a selection now, because I can remember a time when there were no companies, and then there was only one company. So if you didn't like their teaching methods, then you was tough for you.

Houdini has one of the worse learning curves of all the 3D apps, and it's also designed to make you "change" the way you think about 3D production. So learning it can be a difficult if not painful transition from other 3D apps, but I've also found Houdini to offer a high level of discovery in new approaches to solving problems. I can remember spending weeks working on projects in Maya and 3ds Max that would have been a snap in Houdini. If I hadn't taken one of these courses, then I wouldn't know that.

[pclaes]

I voted all online sources. Mainly because if I come across a "bad" workflow and I know a better alternative - and have the time, I will try to post a different solution back if possible. That way if someone else comes across it, there is an improvement - and I can redirect people to certain files with certain workflows a lot quicker. This is mainly for files and less for tutorials though.

In terms of video tuts I tend to skip through them if they are going too slow, but I will still watch "the good bits". Out of an hour there might be 5 minutes that are providing really good info... wouldn't want to miss that.. .

I don't really care where the knowledge comes from, but I have high respect for people that put the info out there. Even if it isn't masterclass material, because I know the effort it takes to get something together. Besides, if the current tutorial isn't great, then maybe the next one will be, so encouragement is a good thing.

[Theis J]

I don't really care where the knowledge comes from, but I have high respect for people that put the info out there. Even if it isn't masterclass material, because I know the effort it takes to get something together. Besides, if the current tutorial isn't great, then maybe the next one will be, so encouragement is a good thing.

I also have a very high respect for everyone, that put an effort into making any materials.

But I think there seems to be a tendency, that people are beginning to rely more on tutorials, and seems to be "scared" to play around in a software app. by them self, without any guidelines. Off cause it's very essential to improve your skills with some of the materials, but what I do think is one of the most important things you can do, is make a lot of mistakes and learn from those mistakes. I think making a lot of mistakes without any tutorials or other materials on you side, is a much better way to improve your skills. I don't think you'll learn that much and get the same understanding on a specific area/problem if you just read and watch tutorials. Some of the learning materials that's out at the moment, covers some very huge areas in Houdini that just can't be explained in lets say 2 hours, and I think you'll miss some very crucial steps if you completely rely on those materials. I personally think it's important to take your time and just play around without any references.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Theis J

[Nerox]

I believe that is't very important to respect any one's opinion on any subject. But I hope you'll allow me to argue your opinion, because I don't understand how can you say that there is to much? I'm in the SESI Toronto office attending an internship of 6 months because I'm struggling to get to the next level (meaning the advanced level, where the 'fun' or 'magic' starts level ;-) ). I think we're slowly getting there, due to people like Peter Claes or a Peter Quint who do a fantastic job in creating very help full learning materials. This is essential especially when your talking about a complex piece of software like Houdini.

Of course you could say that there probably will also be a growth on the 'less quality tutorial' side, when the overall quantity starts to increase. But I think it goes a bit to far to say: People should stop making learning materials for Houdini. That's something similar to writing down by law to forbid future publishing of books of any kind because there might be a chance that a certain individual might write a shitty story.

I exaggerate it a bit but I'm pretty sure you can see where this is going. I totally agree with Peter that you should encourage people instead, if in your opinion they're making a mistake try to help them. That's the whole point of community right?

Cheers,

[Macha]

I think it is something like this: The more choice you get the less likely it is that your choice will hit quality even though more quality is there, but in proportion to the bulk the chances of you hitting something good is reduced.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Macha

[Theis J]

I'm not saying that people should stop making learning materials. And I do have a lot of respect for everyone that contribute with their knowledge.

But I think there will be more quantity in some of the materials, as more and more companies are trying to compete on the houdini-market. As more material find it's way to the customers, it will be more difficult to seperate the good from the bad.

What I miss in some materials is the depth and background-knowledge from some of the instructors. An example, could be learning materials about shaders. Then you'll most likely learn some of the principles and techniques in vex. But you wont get the background information about how it's based on C/C++ and the Renderman language. That's what I miss in some of the learning materials. I miss the background-information, and how things are working on a more technical level in Houdini.

If things are told in a more technical level, then I actually don't think Houdini would be considered to be such a complex peace of software. When it comes to Houdini, I think it's really a matter to get comfortable and be able to interpose in the software. And because there sometimes can be conventions between user and software, then I think it's very essential to know it from a technical point of view.

Cheers

[edward]

I think everyone agrees that more material is a good thing. If there comes to a point where there is too much choice, then the usual solution these days is to have some sort of reputation-type system where people get together and rank/review them publicly to help others choose.

[Nerox]

I think everyone agrees that more material is a good thing. If there comes to a point where there is too much choice, then the usual solution these days is to have some sort of reputation-type system where people get together and rank/review them publicly to help others choose.

I like your impartial point of view, sounds like a great idea as well :-).

Maybe integrate it it in the odforce Wiki, like a list of available tutorials which can separately be ranked by users. Both creators and users can benefit by such a ranking system, it encourages the creators to make high quality tutorials and it gives the user the ability to verify before they buy. You'll end up in a world where users get value for there money and good tutorials make more profit.

This is going some where, I can feel it ;-)

Edited August 7, 2010 by Nerox

[Theis J]

I think everyone agrees that more material is a good thing. If there comes to a point where there is too much choice, then the usual solution these days is to have some sort of reputation-type system where people get together and rank/review them publicly to help others choose.

I also think this idea sounds very good:)

[Marc]

e.d.w.a.r.d. wins!

[LaidlawFX]

I've been learning 3-D software for about 8 years now or so, and there is a lot of hit or miss no matter where you learn from. The stinky ones are when you pay a lot of money/spend a lot of time for them, and it's hard to evaluate what your garnered from them, if anything at all. It also depends on your learning style and the path you are learning the subject in-order to get where you're going, that is if you know where you are going(Solving a problem for a project is a lot more direct than say doing art, or learning a subject matter). So in some cases it is the misses that define where you are going to get the next hit of knowledge. Also I've had a lot of flesh and blood teachers like tutorials that are either amazing hits or misses. cmiVFX was a replacement for one of my teachers in-particularly and I'm also glad I learned to light in undergrad because another was a !horrible! waste of $2,000, on the other hands I've had a few amazing gems of a teacher that have made my last two school irreplaceable.

I think the market for Houdini has a long ways to go before it gets saturated like Maya and 3dsmax both of which I spent a great deal of time with. I will welcome it when it does, it may mean less money in my pocket, but when I have some question on some esoteric subject matter I won't be driving my self bonkers learning it on my own through linear/random logic paths(I do way too much of that as it is). A.k.a when I type into google some search words and my google fung-shway is horribly off and I get one good hit out of five I'll be happy.

[papicrunch]

hello,

for some time I made a database of tutorials and resources that I found on the internet. I use a free program called gcstar.

There is a way to upload this database on internet gcweb.

We can also evaluate the different data.

if some are interested I can share my file cgstar.

Have fun,

Thomas

Edited October 1, 2011 by papicrunch

[zarti]

nice one Thomas , something like this ( but in my harddrive ) i found to be the best way of managing 'knowledge' .

..

personally i have been building my own collection of hou-gems ( copy-pasting-revising-adopting ) .

not sure if what i ve been doing could be shared or not , but i found this the best way of collecting and managing the huge amount of hou-experiences .

typically ( and characteristically to hou ) this kind of knowledge is given in in very tiny bits .

thats why it is hard to find and collect it . seems like real gold =) .

i have got ( commercial tutorials ) whatever there is available and i cannot ask for more since thats someone elses businness and needs .

WHAT i really think is missing in hou's World is something usually very important ... Knowledge Management and Community Motivation in building a Huge Library .

a Knowledge Source where everyone can contribute and learn .

hou's architecture is perfect in sharing . it seems it has it Written in its blood . it looks like it is build with sharing in mind .

even when you arent working with hou but just playing with it for 10 minutes , something interesting comes up .

something which could be useful to you after 2 weeks or to someone else the day aftertomorrow .

hou is great for sharing and discussing variations and optional ways of doing things , while this is not reflected in its own venues .

at least not with the intensity which it should be .

i do not want put this responsibility into none's shoulders but someone 'up there' should do it .

i just found this ( thread ) occassion to express this POV of mine . and i'll do it again ..

..

and for the poll ; i didnt vote since i do not think ' there are TOO MANY ' resources and i usually do not avoid any of them judging their quality .

im Hungry !!

.cheers