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Eagle66

Any realistic Tutorial for the VFX Pipeline out there

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Eagle66

Sidefx provides a lof of free goodies, plus there are a lot of resources for Houdini by couple advanced users. I pretty much have learned by looking at other people`s scenes and watching Sidefx tutorials. It is true that there are not many step by step tutorials for what you are looking, but you might not be able to find similar tutorials for other apps as well. I think that what Sidefx has been providing as far as learning materials go have been great and in-depth. I do not think that other companies do provide similar resources for free, at least not by this magnitude. Literally there are so many tutorials and videos provided by Sidefx and I have learned so much from their resources. Sidefx also provides scene files, digital assets etc.

What you are asking for is a market related request really. If there were alot of users who have been asking for it, someone or some company would have created it commercially. I do not think that such material is a direct responsibility of Sidefx, although it would have been helpful.

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NO complex theoretical TD - this kind of realistic Lessons!

:huh:

I kind of miss the point. The example you offer is very generic. They track a plate, do a 3D in Max and comp it in After Effects. And everything they show is applicable no matter what software combination you want to use. I don't use Boujou but SynthEyes, I don't use Max but Houdini and I'd comp in either AE or Nuke, and the concepts still apply.

Someone might do the same tutorial with Houdini instead of Max and then I come and say: well, this is not useful because it shows Boujou and I don't use that, I use PFTrack. I need the same tutorial, but with PFTrack. In the end, we'd need tutorials for any possible software combination, because there will always be someone who uses a different piece of software for some part of the pipeline.

Dragos

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If he cannot extrapolate those simple concepts to Houdini, then maybe Houdini isn´t the right software for him.

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I use Lightwave, Fusion and SynthEyes and need NO Compositing or Tracking Workshop - i asked for realistic Multipasses with Houdini related stuff (Fire, Smoke, Fluid, etc.) - Environment for Production and this needs often Tracking Data from any Software to reacts with the CG.

After you watch this for example, you are not able to create Fluids or a Waterfall for VFX in Houdini

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1834&Itemid=305

And after you watch this, your Fire and Smoke is also not ready for VFX - every Masterclass is theory.

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1496&Itemid=344

And I bet there are not many HD User here, which are able to create this output.

or real Simulations with environment light

So my Question was the way from the Lessons above ---> to VFX :unsure: - and this is veeerrry different to all other 3D Apps and the techniques in this kind of VFX Training Videos are major time savers and different in any 3D App, and will let you expand on the concepts into your own shots right away, because you have the knowledge and the way here in Houdini!

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You made some good points but you do realized that VFX is very team-oriented and labour intensive process specially

when it comes to Houdini related effect shot.It's simply not possible to Houdini effect guy to have

a production quality digital asset to get a hand on to make a effect shot and light/render and composite/integrated

into live action plate all by himself(not if you expect the shot to be production quality).

It doesn't help the fact that Houdini artist are always in the demand !

But We have all the bits and pieces of information scatter across Side Effects web site/Forum,Od Force,Vimeo and

all the other training web site(CMIVFX,3D Buzz and Digital Tutors) to slove most the problem you will face

once you start to tackle major of the effects shots you will face in production.

What I am saying is you will be disappointed if you are waiting for some complete dvd training for all you need.

I know it sounds elite but if all those scatter information bother u and stop u from learning ,Houdini might not be the solution you are looking for.

Houdini Software itself plays out like the amount of training materials available because the program is so vast and multi-purpose that one person

just simply can't cover the whole vfx pipeline.

It's fun you show all the examples and they are done by top-notch studio with a group of talented people.

I use Lightwave, Fusion and SynthEyes and need NO Compositing or Tracking Workshop - i asked for realistic Multipasses with Houdini related stuff (Fire, Smoke, Fluid, etc.) - Environment for Production and this needs often Tracking Data from any Software to reacts with the CG.

After you watch this for example, you are not able to create Fluids or a Waterfall for VFX in Houdini

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1834&Itemid=305

And after you watch this, your Fire and Smoke is also not ready for VFX - every Masterclass is theory.

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1496&Itemid=344

And I bet there are not many HD User here, which are able to create this output.

or real Simulations with environment light

So my Question was the way from the Lessons above ---> to VFX :unsure: - and this is veeerrry different to all other 3D Apps and the techniques in this kind of VFX Training Videos are major time savers and different in any 3D App, and will let you expand on the concepts into your own shots right away, because you have the knowledge and the way here in Houdini!

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After you watch this for example, you are not able to create Fluids or a Waterfall for VFX in Houdini

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1834&Itemid=305

And after you watch this, your Fire and Smoke is also not ready for VFX - every Masterclass is theory.

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1496&Itemid=344

These tutorials are not in any way made for the things you want. They are Masterclass tutorials, and they are not named Masterclass just as a fluke. It is because they go more deeply in how the stuff works, technically, which is not for beginners trying to make their first fluid or fire sim but for the advanced users to get insight in how the tools works behind the scenes and for that purpose they are great tutorials!

And I bet there are not many HD User here, which are able to create this output.

I disagree here. There is a lot of talented houdini artists on this forum that would be able to do this, and even better imo. But as most of us is not hobbyists but rather professionals that work at different studios we usually dont have the time to do these bigger elaborate tests. And this usually goes for tutorials also. And for the fact I havent seen any tutorial for any program that actually produces a super realistic high-end production result, the closest i seen must be schools that you actually have to spend a lot of time and money on that might go trough what you want. The big issue here is the time and money. Imagine if it takes you 3 months to go trough the material how long time it took to create the material! And if theres only 10 "students" that actually buys the course, well you wont be able to buy food and pay rent if you spend 1year not working and just doing the course.

or real Simulations with environment light

Again this example dosnt have any particular part that is "magic", it just takes time. First tracking issue. At the set they probably had tracking makers that they painted away in comp. And if they cant get a good enough track that sticks you usually can divide the render up in pieces and stabilize each part in comp (or god forbid do a manual track brrr). As for the sim, it might even be the same sim (or same sim with just different seeds and collision objects) for all the doors. Maybe some simple box and planes for walls and objects as collision objects have been done and the doors just two boxes that "opens up" for the apples to start pouring out. The windows can even be their own renders because they are unaffected by the apples pouring out. The plate is probably having greenscreens in the windows of the train or some people had some fun rotoscoping. And stuff in the picture is rotoscoped (might be simple if they got a good track they can send to nuke for example). As far as lightning/rendering/integration goes its not anything new. You just have to know why you do things. First the apples need some texture, you dont really see much details in the apples in that youtube example but its probably there. Then to the shader, how does the specular look on an new shiny apple, do you see reflection or can we just use specular? does it need subsurface scattering? if yes why? and so on.. After that is tweaked we come to the lightning. A few lights for interior of the wagon (the light come from above), the apples dont change much in lightning as they go out of the wagon so they are probably rendered with same lightning all over. And since its not completely black between the apples, some fill light is needed, maybe they used an environment light (maybe they shot a hdr picture on set, or just used some generic home made for simple fill light, since we dont see reflections in their renders it would work). Then for rendering you can do it in a million ways but lets say its rendered out as a "beauty" with just an additional specular pass and a ground shadow pass and occlusion. Then in comp you could remove specular and shadow in areas where the apples goes into the shadow areas of the plate. And of course matching black and white values and some color correction in comp, maybe a few rotos here and there to color correct the apples to fit into certain areas of the plate (instead of doing monster lightning that matches values 100% everywhere). When you break it down you have most of the info here in all tutorials you have watched, it just comes down to production experience to learn how to use the knowledge you have, you would be amazed with how many things can be used in a way you never thought it being used for!! And nowhere here have i mentioned Houdini/Maya (i actually mentioned Nuke but could been Fusion or whatever comp software) so this knowledge is applicable in all programs, then what you need to know is how to do each step (like how do you track? what is Rigid bodies? how can i make a sim with it? how can i make a shader have specular? how do i create a render pass with the software i use? and so on).

Of course a real good tutorial on this example would be nice to have but there probably isnt any magic in there, just hard work and time =)

end of my babbling, maybe something i said made sense, if not "moahaha i stole your time" :D

Edited by Magnus Pettersson
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Thanks for all the hints, but i always surprised about the negative opinion to the hole VFX Workflow with Houdini. Again all other 3 App has this series and good a 4-6 Hour realistic complete Lesson for a $39,95 DVD/download will sell more as 100 times over the month around the world (with announcement, advertisement).

My first five Hour Lightwave VFX-Lesson from a well-known VFX Studioartist was sold over 450 time in two Years. I'am Freelancer and hole in one CG, Tracking, Compositing, Cutting and learned the other Software over several years, because there are hundred of realistic and VFX related Lessons - but Houdini :angry:

(this was my second DVD: ;)http://desktopimages.com/Stream/VFX_Promo.mov)

I suggest VFX Worklflow with Houdini here and at Sidefx - and now its up to the Artists...

Why it is so difficult?? The following Cover Image (as 20 sec Movie) is the result of an near 4 hour (12 Lessons) VFX Trainig published by two Artists, CG and Composting (modeling was 30 min. walkthrough with the predefined Building).

deconstructbb1w.jpg

Merry X-Mas and happy 2011

Edited by Eagle66

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Sorry Eagle, but you must be stopped :D

I´m an old timer at Newtek forums, because I´ve been using Lightwave for about 10 years before I got into Houdini (mind you, I still use Lightwave as well) and I recalled you were asking for similar stuff around Newtek forums about a year ago.

In that case your "big" problem was that the tutorials that you found were made for a previous version of Lightwave as opposed to the one you had installed :rolleyes:

One smart individual gave you a wise hint that you could still use nowadays: "You should focus on learning skills not software, if you can learn how to do the techniques in an old version of the software then it is likely to be the same or easier in the current version. I've watched several Gnomon videos and only one of them was relevant to my software but the skills are what's important because they are transferrable. "

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Yes, thats right B) I have learned Lightwave, SynthEyes, Fusion, AfterEffects, premiere pro, VUE 6-9, Carrara and Photoshop CSx with this kind of videos - all this Apps in less than two years and all to handle this with realistic Footage - now I'am searching for in Houdini !!!

I don't need the skills - i know these theory, but NOT the specific Software skills. Thats also not MY way to learn - I have no time and money to watch all unrelated videos. I also have no time for try and error of thousand parameters in all VFX related Application.

Thats the destiny of a Freelancer - time save learning and this are outside a classic Filmschool, Software related (!) Video Lessons and NOT tryout to transfer a VFX Maya mental ray rendering (with all important Details like MotionBlur, DOF, Displacement, GI, Ambient, etc. ) to Houdini without any learned knowledge - it's inefficient and for Hobbyist....

You can watch this Video above for 3DSMax - you never get this realistic setup in Houdini - the Software skills for related Parameters are the crucial factor for the Realism.

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Yes, thats right B) I have learned Lightwave, SynthEyes, Fusion, AfterEffects, premiere pro, VUE 6-9, Carrara and Photoshop CSx with this kind of videos - all this Apps in less than two years and all to handle this with realistic Footage - now I'am searching for in Houdini !!!

I don't need the skills - i know these theory, but NOT the specific Software skills. Thats also not MY way to learn - I have no time and money to watch all unrelated videos. I also have no time for try and error of thousand parameters in all VFX related Application.

Thats the destiny of a Freelancer - time save learning and this are outside a classic Filmschool, Software related (!) Video Lessons and NOT tryout to transfer a VFX Maya mental ray rendering (with all important Details like MotionBlur, DOF, Displacement, GI, Ambient, etc. ) to Houdini without any learned knowledge - it's inefficient and for Hobbyist....

You can watch this Video above for 3DSMax - you never get this realistic setup in Houdini - the Software skills for related Parameters are the crucial factor for the Realism.

Sounds cool.

When I´m back at office next week, I´m going to tell my employe that from now on I´m only going to do stuff someone else already done on youtube. Basicly I dont have the time to learn new things nor tweak weird parameters untill the client is happy.

Wish me good luck when negotiating a new contract. :rolleyes:

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I don't need the skills - i know these theory, but NOT the specific Software skills.

Software has features, not skills. Pros have skills.

Thats also not MY way to learn - I have no time and money to watch all unrelated videos. I also have no time for try and error of thousand parameters in all VFX related Application.

You have no time for trial and error of parameters? Definitely, you are in the wrong sector. VFX ain´t for you.

Thats the destiny of a Freelancer - time save learning and this are outside a classic Filmschool, Software related (!) Video Lessons and NOT tryout to transfer a VFX Maya mental ray rendering (with all important Details like MotionBlur, DOF, Displacement, GI, Ambient, etc. ) to Houdini without any learned knowledge - it's inefficient and for Hobbyist....

What? Now learning stuff by working hard and doing research is hobbyist? geez, yeah. Nothing as pro as watching a youtube tutorial telling you the buttons you have to click <_<

Edited by Netvudu
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If you dont have time to learn it i think you should stay away from Houdini because you need years of investment in Houdini to fully understand and take advantage of the software and no single tutorial can teach you this. If you dont/cant spend that time in Houdini I suggest you to try and solve your problems in the softwares that you already know which will probably go faster for you :) The software is just a tool, its the artists that make the art!

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Thats the destiny of a Freelancer - time save learning and this are outside a classic Filmschool, Software related (!) Video Lessons and NOT tryout to transfer a VFX Maya mental ray rendering (with all important Details like MotionBlur, DOF, Displacement, GI, Ambient, etc. ) to Houdini without any learned knowledge - it's inefficient and for Hobbyist....

That's getting philosophical...

I have no idea about the *destiny* of the freelancer but I can make a guess at the possible *purpose* of the freelancer, and that would be to be useful, competent and interesting for the potential studio that might want to hire him. No serious studio that I know about or where I worked would hire someone with the mentality and *skills* that you describe.

Also, as others already told you, that particular mentality might serve you well in your career, but it is definitely the wrong way to approach Houdini. And it's not only about Houdini as software, but it's the wrong mentality for someone who wants to be a "Houdini guy" in a VFX team. It's the complete opposite of how Houdini should be approached and of what a team/studio/project expects from a Houdini seat (which is generally the seat that develops new solutions and /or solves problems unsolvable by others). You are wasting your time, seriously.

Dragos

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@Eagle66: May I ask You why You want to learn houdini? What exacly do You expect and what kind of effect do You want to do?

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@Eagle66: May I ask You why You want to learn houdini? What exacly do You expect and what kind of effect do You want to do?

Realistic Fluid, Particles, Fire, Smoke, Water, Destruction, physics etc. to comp in Real Footage, this unfortunately don't work in realism native with Lightwave.

What i will learn? Project based Houdini Lessons - no more, no less.

http://www.fxphd.com/movies/fxphd-tour-v5.mov

I will end this thread now - it gets stupid - and i was portrayed as a bonehead, because i asked for project based realistic Houdini Lessons, which is definitive the exact same Philosophy for example of fxphd :(

You should all think about why Houdini is the ONLY 3D App, which don't have any of this realistic(!) Tutorials -with exception the only one fxphd TD Lesson- you can dispute this, but its fact!!

And yes, perhaps is the complex procedural Houdini the wrong Software, because you need years of investment to fully understand this to produce those expected realistic results and this Software is only for the big Studios with up to many specialist Artists and this confirm why no Independent Movie use it for VFX ...

Goodbye.

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there seems less to say, but I do it anyway, skip if I'm boring You :)

I can see somehow Your point , but Your conclusion is too shortsighted. I don't want to glorify houdini, at least not now, but it shines bright where others go down, and that's the best it can be used for, at least in my opinion. I see it more as a development tool for effects than for just doing a specific known effect. As it allows You really to combine everything with anything it gives You unpredictable possibilities. In any other software You have to start the cpp route if You want that freedom.

But You don't get anything for free as always, first, to get the full pleasure You have to invest time to learn nodes and contexts that You may not expect to be necessary for Your goal. On the other side You have to get the concepts behind a effect into Your head. And for that it really isn't necessary to have a tutorial in houdini, most of the time it is a cool idea. And than You are fine.

The houdini way is for sure not the easiest and shortest one, but it is the most rewarding one, as You can transfer all to any software, as far as it is already capable of doing that.

If You are not willing to invest time, than maybe that precious software is not written for You.

Anyway, try not to take anything personal, I just recommend You to have more patience with Your houdini relationship.

Best regards,

Martin

Edited by sanostol

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[..]and this Software is only for the big Studios with up to many specialist Artists and this confirm why no Independent Movie use it for VFX ...

As you were already told, that assumption of yours is wrong.

Dragos

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Very informative thread. I've just begun my relationship with Houdini (3 months now) and it has been a pleasure so far. I realize it will take time and patience and an open mind to fully understand certain concepts and aspects of the software but I love a challenge! Thanks to everyone contributing their houdini knowledge to this forum!

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Realistic Fluid, Particles, Fire, Smoke, Water, Destruction, physics etc. to comp in Real Footage, this unfortunately don't work in realism native with Lightwave.

What i will learn? Project based Houdini Lessons - no more, no less.

http://www.fxphd.com/movies/fxphd-tour-v5.mov

These things you are asking to learn requires you to devote a lot of time to. To make these things realistically just comes from years of experience because each of the topics you describes requires a different set of skills and you wont acquire them overnight, but trough hard work (including trial and error and tweaking and learning parameters). And even bigger studios sometimes dont nail these topics down to "fully realistic" because like i said before, its hard! Thats why there are FX artists/TDs working only with this year after year because its hard and very technically challenging to make these things realistic and thats why FX artists are needed! But I do agree with you that there is too few professional tutorials covering this kind of things for Houdini, maybe now as Houdini are getting a bigger and bigger user base we will start seeing more learning material of this kind.

btw the page you provided have houdini course too in a production environment, like you wanted ;)

http://www.fxphd.com/courseInfo.php#HOU201

Very informative thread. I've just begun my relationship with Houdini (3 months now) and it has been a pleasure so far. I realize it will take time and patience and an open mind to fully understand certain concepts and aspects of the software but I love a challenge! Thanks to everyone contributing their houdini knowledge to this forum!

Welcome to the forum Kevin and your new relationship with Houdini, we hope its a long lasting one! :)

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Welcome to the forum Kevin and your new relationship with Houdini, we hope its a long lasting one! :)

Thanks Magnus,

As I mentioned it has been quite a treat so far. I wish I had more time to devout to learning but I typically work anywhere from 13 to 16 hours a day. I don't use this as an excuse and try to learn and study whenever I can squeeze in time. I agree that creating realistic effects such as Fire, Smoke, Destruction would take some time to learn when trying to create these particular effects within Houdini, but wow once you know how certain parameters and nodes effect things in relation to particles and dynamics, the rest is up to your imagination and with Houdini I feel there is no limitation at all. B)

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