Anyone using 4K displays for 3d?

[magneto]

Hi,

 

It seems like these 4K displays become more and more common. Anybody using one for 3d work?

 

I read that they had 30" (?) 4K for computers and also 55-60" 4K TVs. If I am not wrong, 55-60" 4K display should give about similar relative resolution (not sure what it's called) as a 30" lcd monitor (2560x1600)?

 

I only assume it would hurt your neck trying to look at one up close

 

How would it work for a 30" 4K display though? Do everything appear super small?

[malexander]

It really depends on the interaction between the OS and the application. OSX 10.8+ and Windows 8 have better DPI scaling support, but the application needs to opt-in to be "DPI-aware". On OSX, if the application is not DPI-aware, OSX will pixel-double the application (so on a 2880x1800 retina screen, the app would render at 1440x900 and be scaled up). On Windows, the application will appear very small, though you can often tweak the Font scaling with mixed results.

 

Houdini's "High DPI" UI scaling mode is designed specifically for high-DPI displays (Edit > Prefs > General UI, Global UI Size), which should restore the relative size of the UI on a 4K display. However, this setting isn't automatically selected, Houdini doesn't set the appropriate DPI-aware flags yet, and you still would need to set the 3D Viewport font size to Large in order to see annotations there at a reasonable size. So there is some work to be done (though a 24" 4K display is allegedly on its way to my desk for testing).

 

There are some gotchas with 4K monitors, however:

• You must use either a Displayport or HDMI connection, so your video card needs to support at least one of those (DP is preferable)
• The hardware scaler in monitors currently don't support 4K, so the monitor appears to the OS as two screens, as it has two scalers. The panel itself is a single unit, though, so there isn't a seam in the middle. This requires a video card that supports Displayport v1.2.
• 4K over HDMI appears to be limited to 30fps. Which is apparently terrible for mouse movement (laggy).
• You need a video card with enough VRAM to drive it. A 4K monitor has 8.3 million pixels, which requires a lot of shader power and VRAM (high-end card with at least 2GB VRAM, I'd think).

Once my 4K monitor arrives and I've done some testing with Houdini, I'll share a bit more of my experience.

[magneto]

Thanks alot Mark, you are lucky to get your hands on a 4K monitor I don't understand why they make them at small size like 24" though. It seems like having 1080p on your cellphone, that it becomes hard to tell the difference?

 

Not sure if this is a good one but you should get one of this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236338

 

I know what you mean about dpi settings on windows. I have seen them when using a laptop with small screen but high resolution. I think they still look very small and each of these settings just seem to change one small thing instead of a global resize. So are you saying Houdini will be able to preserve UI scaling globally on 4K displays with a few settings instead of tweaking tons of options to have a similar look as in smaller displays? That would be really useful

 

Lastly do you know if 4K TVs are suitable to use as a computer display? I always knew that the 1080p TVs have lower resolution than 30" lcd monitors and that at 1080p the TV size is way too big to have the same relative resolution as 30"s or other lcd monitors. But if I am not wrong, with the same pixel density (?) a 55-60" 4K TV should look like a giant high-end computer lcd where things look not too big like 1080p. If that's the case, I wonder if they could be used instead.

 

I don't know if they have fps difference to make gaming, or 3d inferior on TVs than lcd monitors. But before AFAIK the only advantage lcd monitors had was their high resolution at reasonable physical size to have good UI scale, pixel density. So maybe with 4K that's no longer necessary?

 

I can manage using dual 30"s but 1 60" might be more overwhelming and maybe less productive. I still love to see Houdini on that though.

[Mandrake0]

there are new ones comming from Dell:

http://en.community.dell.com/dell-blogs/direct2dell/b/direct2dell/archive/2014/01/07/dell-delivers-4k-for-less-than-1k-dell-s-28-inch-ultra-hd-monitor-priced-at-699.aspx

[magneto]

That looks awesome and I can't believe the price. But after reading the comments, it's 30hz, and 60hz version costs $3k

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&sku=210-ACBL

[eetu]

30Hz is probably just fine for a lot of photography people out there

[malexander]

The unfortunate part is that the sub-$1000 4K displays are all using TN display technology. That's the same tech that causes visible colorshifting as you move your head away from the center of the screen, found on cheap laptops and gaming/3D monitors (as they have very little ghosting).  So I'm not sure you'd want to use one of those for color-critical applications.

 

The Dell 24" and 31" monitors are using the new IGZO (Indium Gallium Zinc Oxide) display tech, which has all the benefits of a pro IPS display at much higher density. The Dell 24" is $1400, while the Dell and Asus 31" monitors are ~$3500 (though I've heard those are dropping in price to ~$2800), and all of those are IGZO displays.

[freaq]

the main show stopper at the moment is actually the 30 hrz, which is annoying to work with.

the TN display I would not care to mushc about as I jsut want screen realestate. 
(I want a massive network editor and details view for my purposes)

TN has gotten much better lately, they are no longer the terrible screens of old, although obviously for color critical work it cannot be used.
but I do feel for just visualizing tons of data for your second screen it would be ideal.

another cheap option is this: http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00DOPGO2G
499 4k 39 inch. agian not a very good screen perse, but a lot of realestate.

also no dpi scaling would work fine with a size of 30" and up as text would be around the same ize as full HD at say 17 inch, like my laptop has.
the 28" Dell I might test but the 30hrz sort of scares me (same with the seiki) but I am keen to get more screenspace !

[magneto]

Wow IGZO sounds pretty impressive. Although after some thinking I am wondering if it actually makes sense to own a 4K display? LCD monitors always had a certain resolution to keep up, unlike TVs, which is why 30" LCDs have higher resolution than 1080p. This makes sense moving from say 24" to 30" where everything still looks similar except you have more real estate.

 

But when you increase resolution beyond this while keeping the same size, what is the gain? Is it like having 1080p on your cell phone? Because at that size, I can't tell even if I shove my face on the screen

 

I am not against 4K though. I just think you need 50-60" to have the 30" LCD monitor equivalent of resolution but in 4K. If you squeeze 4K resolution on my 30" monitor, what else I am gonna see?

 

I would still love to see one and maybe the difference is amazing in person. I never saw a higher resolution than 2560x1600 packed in 30" or less.

 

So why not get regular 30" than 4K 30"? If you want 60" 4K display, then it makes sense to maintain the same pixel density.

[freaq]

for me 4K means more pixels which means more data (and if possible smaller bars on top of my windows which always annoy me, massive waste of space)
also if you see the Macbook pro retina's you'll see text is much more legible (I didn't believe it until I saw it).

so even at 20" 4k will improve (once windows sorts out its scaling issues) the user interaction.
still I feel the optimal size is around 28-32" without windows scaling so you get to use those pixels.

 

ps mark;

please make houdini scaling of DPI an option  
I really would prefer smaller buttons and more of them then getting better looking similar sized ones...

[magneto]

I see what you mean. I have to see it in person like you said. But as is if you were to view a 4K screenshot of say Houdini on a standard 30" (2560x1600), I am guessing you can't make out anything. But when they fix that DPI stuff and make it look like a regular 30" size for the UIs, then I think the only difference is gonna be in that extra detail in between, i.e. crispier image.

 

Also I assume any high-end graphics card will have slower performance when using 4K as opposed to 2560x1600.

 

Btw it would be very useful if Mark took some screenshots of Houdini with lots of panes when he finally gets a 4K display. I think it would be helpful to use these images when testing 4K displays in stores just to see how Houdini would look. I mean when the UI fixes are done and everything

 

I would love to use Houdini on a 60" 4K display. Though it might not be practical.

[freaq]

see I'd love smaller but still legible text in my node editor

the main reason you cant read text below a font size of 10 is just because there aren't enough pixels not because of your inability to read smaller letters
for me a 28" would be perfect. and I can't wait to get my hands on one.

+1 on the houdini screencap btw!!!

[magneto]

I would love to see one up close I remember though going from 20" or so to 30", or even when I wasn't using my PC for several months and coming back to it from 20"s, it still looked very small just like the first day that it takes a few hours for me to adjust. That's why I never considered anything higher-res and that it didn't exist

 

How do you guys use set up your Houdini desktop though? I created my desktop from day 1 because none of the default ones are efficient IMO.

 

I keep it simple with 1 lcd entirely dedicated to a 3d viewport, while on my main screen facing me I have network editor and parameters pane. Everything else stowed away. At the bottom, details view on demand, and other tabs like channel editor, motion view, material palette. This is the perfect setup for me (25% scale):

 

[magneto]

Have you guys seen this?

 

 

 

It seems like 4k monitors are getting cheaper. Also this one doesn't seem to use 2 separate displays inside, so it should be better I think.

 

$600 in Canada. Though having your apps show at the right scale still seem to be a hit or miss so not sure if it's worth jumping onto these displays. Hopefully Mark will figure it out for Houdini

[Guest tar]

on the OsX side, 10.9.3 is reportedly getting good 4k retina/high dpi support - should be out of beta soon too. 

[freaq]

I just ordered a samsing 60hrz 4K monitor 599$ at NCIX or Newegg:
http://www.ncix.com/detail/samsung-u28d590d-28in-4k-uhd-c5-95635.htm

I'll let you know how it works when I get my hands on it.

[magneto]

Amazing man, did you order because I posted here? Because I should get a commission from NCIX

 

Please do let us know how it is, especially using Houdini, and screenshots would be immensely useful. Enjoy it

[freaq]

I was keeping my eye on it for a while already, it became available and immediately umped on it.

still nr 702 on the waiting list... and then people say there is no market for 4K monitors only TV's and tablets...

idiots -_-'

anyways will do

[freaq]

so here it is:
 

edit:

apparantly it gets scaled here I made a quick blogpost about my findings:

http://freekhoekstra.blogspot.nl/

Edited April 30, 2014 by freaq

[malexander]

Is that with the High DPI UI size, or Normal? (also, the forums have scaled the image down, I think, if it was meant to be full res).