King Kirby Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Ah, what is art? If we are debating that, the thread certainly has no end (unless Jason closes it). If however we are trying to figure out why there isn't much Houdini "art" on the net, my view is based on simple statistics. The Houdini user base is several orders of magnitude smaller than [alternative] - especially if one subtracts working professionals from both counts. Certainly the recently released Apprentice HD could change this over time - (particularly if discussed on other forums). Beyond simple statistics, I see some merit to the modeling theory. Many artists start or work solely in this domain and there are a lot of strong modeling options to choose from. While I expect the modeling workflow in Houdini to improve, the advantage of Houdini is more in its totality than in any component part. That said, what about abstract art? Perhaps when one normalizes for size of user base we might come up with some new hypothesis. But the original post was talking about quality not quantity, and I have a couple opinions on that. The first is I don't agree. The second is that perhaps Houdini is more than a paintbrush. Perhaps Houdini users are "gloating" over the efficiency of getting a job done. On a large production, it takes many people and many tools to get the art produced. Many Houdini users obviously feel Houdini is one of those (in)valuable tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 some quick thoughts on this topic... I think the modeling theory is generally true... many people start in this industry wanting to one of two things: modelers or character animators. Houdini (until recently) has not been the professional choice for either of these things...and isn't used in educational situations either. so the result is that most of the people who /do/ use Houdini are not modelers or character animators...and so whatever work they do that can be presented here is of other things...other, often quite spectacular things.... I get this from stu every once in a while (we work together)...he'll say "why don't you post stuff on od[force]?" all I can tell him is that I'm not a modeler...so making a pretty picture isn't something I can do (and in some cases don't want to do)... all this is changing though...with Apprentice and Apprentice HD the number of users is growing and eventually there will be a larger number of contributions to the community of the type that XSI is, I think, referring to... the other thing I'd like to say is that like most people here I came to Houdini from a different application...and now I've found the app that best suits me and I'm able to find and do work that I like...so I'm happy to stick with Houdini... I think much of the app war crap that you'll see on forums is due, not to an actual difference in the apps themselves, but in the fact that we have all invested quite heavily in our app of choice...that investement is sometimes financial but more importantly it's emotional/intellectual...we're relying on our ability to use a tool to pay for our lives (food, home etc etc), so any threat, real or imagined and however subtle, to that is going to cause a reaction - often an irrational one... I'd love to see more work here in our Galleries...and I'd like to contribute more myself...it wont be pretty pictures or 3 billion poly characters that can't be animated though...it'll be do-dads and maybe a rig or two... anyway...this /is/ an interesting topic...just keep it cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 panelbeaters often drive beaten up cars and mechanics arent usually the owners of the high powered drag cars. likewise the available examples of houdini and prman are limited because proper end-to-end projects are the last thing professional houdini folk are likely to do in their spare time. they probably play around and test concepts but complete projects are probably few and far between. i guess this is complicated by the fact that much of the work they do professionally is owned by their company or the client - they would probably love to post examples but simply cant or it would be too hard to be worth it. in response to the apprentice contests not generating much art - sidefx only ran a single contest. this always puzzled me - it would surely cost next to nothing to run .. but would address the primary concern of this thread. </big hint> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUsualAlex Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Actually, this year's student demo reel from SESI were great! EDIT: Erm... that'd be 2007 siggraph student demo reel from SESI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 (edited) "I'm wondering what you're doing here actually. It doesn't sound like anything we say will change your opinion, so why be here at all? Or are you just trolling?" Marc, take any impartial third party and have them read this quote and get back to me on their opinion of it. I have read it 3 times and each time the delivery is the same. Don't act like you to subtle for me and it went over my head, cus you know its BS. In spite of your allegations your the only one having a hissy-fit, and in time you'll delete this thread because you and you alone have an axe to grind. So Marc Im asking you nicely to reread my posts, not word for word, just brush over them. You'll find you overacting. Edited December 20, 2007 by XSI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlowell Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I want to see XSI's artwork before the thread is closed !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUsualAlex Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I don't want to fan the flame, but no offense, you came across as fairly arrogant in your posting... It's not so much as to the subject that you brought up or whatever, but just your attitude. I think what we're all asking of you is to tone it down -- no need to be defensive about it. If there's problem, we'll help you if we can and have time. If there's something in Houdini that's fundamentally flawed, voice your opinion with courtesy and professionalism and let SESI know so that they can look into it and fix it -- but be open mind to accept alternative ideas from those of us who knows Houdini well enough to find an alternative approach. Instead of complaining that there is no good artwork coming out of Houdini, well, then help us change that. You seem to have time, please then make some killer artwork using Houdini and change that. Complain about this won't do you any good if no one wants to start doing one. As for quite a few of us -- we ARE working and some of us even have family to attend to. So for those of us, we simply don't have the energy at home to try to come up with some killer artwork. It's a fact. Not an excuse. Fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I get this from stu every once in a while (we work together)...he'll say "why don't you post stuff on od[force]?"all I can tell him is that I'm not a modeler...so making a pretty picture isn't something I can do (and in some cases don't want to do)... It's true - occasionally I'll playfully poke Michael in the ribs about not posting images to odforce, but the truth is that his contributions to the types of images that give others all the glory can't be overstated. I might have more experience in the modeling or rendering end of things, but he'll wipe the floor with me when it comes time to rig something. ps. I take just a little bit of personal offense to the notion that there isn't any quality art being created in houdini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netvudu Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 (edited) I don Edited December 20, 2007 by Netvudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altbighead Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 We are arguing with the guy named XSI . Don't you guys get it? On a serious side, I wonder how many percentage of this forum user are in the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Netvudu, First of all I did not check the reel because I don't normally look that low on a post. That is usually just a signature or quote. And it doesn't solve the problem if one person contributes something stunning, this is not "problem solved". My post was not "can Houdini produce some good art?" its "why is there not much of it?" andrewlowell, A critic does not have to be an expert film producer to criticize a film. I offered to do something on Houdini, after a few months of learning, but am now reconsidering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlowell Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I seeee ..... I'm guessing from this response that you don't have quality artwork? Why then criticize other's artwork, if you don't know what it takes to produce it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 A bit about my name - I dont like typical internet names like ABitHiTech67 or DicoTrixGal, but at the same time am not going to use my real name. So I went with XSI - on the up side you can actually pronounce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 andrewlowell, I have art to show. As Ive said tree times now, I was prepared to do some on Houdini Apprentice and post it. I was excited about doing this up until everybody got sick of me for reasons they cant articulate properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlowell Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 (edited) The old 3ds Max forum was very professional, only real names allowed. However, if you go around insulting 15-year veterans artwork I can see why you wouldn't want to disclose your real name, no one will hire you in 5 years. It takes a bit more than a little flaming to discourage an artist. I'd encourage you to use your real name and ask for useful advice from these Houdini experts. Make another login and start today, no one will know it's the NEW XSI Edited December 20, 2007 by andrewlowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 andrewlowell Can you please show me where I insulted his art....just quote me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photex Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Marc, take any impartial third party and have them read this quote and get back to me on their opinion of it. I have read it 3 times and each time the delivery is the same.Don't act like you to subtle for me and it went over my head, cus you know its BS. In spite of your allegations your the only one having a hissy-fit, and in time you'll delete this thread because you and you alone have an axe to grind. So Marc Im asking you nicely to reread my posts, not word for word, just brush over them. You'll find you overacting. It's not that Marc is the only one having a hissy-fit, it's just that a lot of us share his point of view and don't want to be redundant. It's shocking to me that you would even think to affront our hosts. I mean, c'mon man, you're messing with The Tick! Meanwhile, there are a lot of great insights and points made in this thread. Take a breather, relax, and then participate respectfully. We all learn together that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewlowell Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Generally I'd consider criticizing other's artwork without producing your own somewhat of an insult. Everyone cares about what they do. How bout a complement? Especially for taking the time to post some stuff. Really ... a. use real name b. link to website / portfolio c. ask useful advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSI Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 andrewlowell, I'm still awaiting the evidence, mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I think this has run it's course. Sorry guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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