panel - the state of the visual effects industry

[Nibbler]

there is a very interesting panel about

"...the state of the visual effects industry -- where we are, how we got here and what can be done to move the industry forward in a way that's fair and thriving for artists, facilities and the studios".

"The panel will be moderated by Lee Stranahan, a former visual effects artist and writer for The Huffington Post whose Open Letter To James Cameron: Fairness For VIsual Effects Artists started discussions all around the world."

last time many studios disappeared and people see something should move in this subject,

this is not directly Houdini but it's for good of us all

http://vfxtownhall.eventbrite.com/

[jason_slab]

i'm really interested to see where this all goes, i think it's about time people speak out about the state of the industry!

jason

[dyei nightmare]

...and most VFX workers face long hours, no benefits and little credit.

this sounds very sad

[kumpa]

In Slovenia vfx workers are paid about 6 euro/hour while lorry driver gets 8 euro/h.

[Allegro]

It's already filled up. I'm on zee waitlist

[Allegro]

aaaand I'm in.

[Marc]

For all who missed it, there's an audio download here :

http://vfxhaiku.com/...ll_03_29_10.mp3

Some interesting things being said and some nice discussions started.

[abvfx]

Thank you thank you thank you

[Marc]

So as a group of people who are arguably somewhere near the middle of the vfx world and as od[force] is known as a place of decent discussion without the rabble rousing aspect of normal forums. Does anyone think it would be valid for us to discuss this here?

Obviously continuing the discussion regarding unions/guilds etc. would be quite a valid thing.

yes/no/maybe?

M

[loudsubs]

I've been checking this thread in hopes of hearing what some of the vets have to say. VFX are more prominent in movies than ever before, but studios are still closing down. And even getting an internship these days, much less an actual job, is very difficult (for some of us .

What I got out of the discussion:

-vfx artists/facilities are not getting as much as they could/should, when it comes to the money or benefits made from blockbuster movies

-facilities do not have a good business structure to go by and as a result, they are barely able to keep their heads above water, much less make reasonable profits. And this trinkles down to the artists.

-VFX is responsible for a huge portion of what goes into making a movie these days -- and also selling it through an eye-candy trailer

-Higher quality work (for a higher price) can not/ should not, be less important than getting the work done cheaper within a budget

-vfx work is getting outsourced to other countries because of price

-WE AS ARTISTS have to find a way to make things better for ourselves, but we must do so together, united as one voice!

-Is there a way to make this business more global and regulated so that everyone gets a fair piece? union, guild, trade organization?

-there were probably a few other important things, feel free to bring them up as the discussion progresses

As an example, one of the speakers said Digital Domain, at one point, almost had pay checks bouncing because of very low profits compared to overhead. I dont think he said what year this was happening, but it's a very sobering thing to hear none-the-less. When a big dog on the block is struggling to make ends meet, it seems there may be a problem. Less facilities means less jobs = not good for those that want to make a living in VFX.

Anyway, being an up and coming artist with minimal experience, I'm wondering what others thought of this talk and of what needs to be done to get our industry going in the right direction so that the future has great things in terms of the art and also the treatment of the artists.

Also, where does Houdini fall into this discussion, it is a unique software

What do experienced people think possible solutions are? Who will lead us forward?

[abvfx]

I agree with loudsub analysis.

In my humble opinion it is an age old concept, the balance between value and price. The value of VFX is extremely high and yet the cost is considerably low.

But this is not a case where the opinions of the unknown need to be heard. Its the industries captains and generals that need to be talking here. Although everyone has their opinions ,this is a place for those who arent in the industry to do more listening than speaking.

You have a lot more power and sway than you think.

[Marc]

Yeah going off what loudsubs said and the analysis here:

http://www.fxguide.com/qt/2374/vfx-town-hall-how-did-it-go-what-did-it-mean

I think the change needs to come from a few levels.

1. Artists should not ever (ever!) work in an abusive environment. The only way things can get better is if people start taking personal responsibility for their own lives. The problem is that juniors come in with no life, no house, no kids etc. and are more than happy to work for a gazillion hours for no pay. This of course screws it up for everyone else who has responsibilities in their lives.

Having said that though, experienced artists shouldn't stay in a facility where they don't recognise the value of experience. If you're working in a studio that is more than happy to employ 'slaves', and then complain that you don't get as much done as they do, then you should vote with your feet and walk out. Obviously this is easier said than done re. responsibilities... but it has to start somewhere.

2. VFX facilities themselves need to band together and at the very least assist in forming a global union/guild. They're the only ones with enough clout with the film studios to demand that they use the guild, and the only way anything is going to change is to do something like this.

It's funny how a few years ago the thought of a union was abhorrent to me, but this race to the bottom isn't helping anyone and it's only going to end in disaster and it seems like a union is the only way to halt the downward spiral.

3. Filling out what Scott said in the townhall... I think we should identify that some jobs in the vfx industry have actually become commodity work and set those free to do so. eg. Rotoscoping... Honestly, roto done in India at a low budget studio will probably be as good as work done in a high end facility, only much cheaper. Things like fx, lighting, compositing though... these are often ridiculously hard to do properly and they're only getting more complex as the demands increase. There is an eternal shortage of fx artists out there and therefore this kind of work should demand a premium. So it comes down to how the studios price themselves and where to start.

The film studios are obviously not going to lift a finger, but it sounds like they won't be against any possible solutions, so it's up to us as an industry to present the solutions and come to a working arrangement.

Anyway, I think people are waiting for the proverbial 'White Knight' to ride in and save them. But even if this person exists, they can't operate in a vacuum (only Batman can breathe in space... ). So as senior fx people and supervisors we should get the ball rolling in our facilities to allow for such a thing to happen. As with life if you sit around waiting for something to happen, you'll be waiting a long time.

So let's begin shall we .

M

[Nibbler]

from my point of view it looks like there are no RIGHTS,

this market should be regulated in some way, perhaps like any other market, ONE should have a RIGHTS to work and to have a life outside company, if you stay at work more hours and don't have money for this it's a SLAVERY,

[Marc]

ok hang on... let's not get carried away here.

There are rights, there are laws governing the behaviour of companies. If you're working in a company that is abusing you then you have every right to appeal to the laws of your country to sort them out. However that's not at all what we're talking about here.

Well it is a little, but it's on the periphery. The main body of the issue is the race to the bottom of pricing our work. At the moment the studios are in a mode where they have to underbid their competition to actually get any work at all (keeping the planes in the air analogy), which means it's being priced as a commodity. Since the work we do isn't a commodity, the big question is is how do we get the studios to pay fair market prices based on the artistry involved. The price you pay as a studio who's being forced to cut your rates in order to keep your doors open is that you have to find other ways to stay in business. The less ethical people will resort to abusive staff relations, which brings us to your point.

So yes, it's in there... but there are a whole host of things to sort out in the meantime before that can be addressed. Meanwhile feel free to not take the abuse and leave, it's your right.

Seemingly the only way to do all this is to have some sort of unifying body (union/guild etc) which specifies fair rates for artists and makes sure that the film industry uses only union shops.

A little like how SAG/DG/SWG etc. are all in cahoots. A film studio can't shoot a film using a directors guild director without using SAG actors too. This means that non-union facilities can certainly exist, but they won't be able to be used unless it's a non-union show.

yes?

M

[digitallysane]

Seemingly the only way to do all this is to have some sort of unifying body (union/guild etc) which specifies fair rates for artists and makes sure that the film industry uses only union shops.

A little like how SAG/DG/SWG etc. are all in cahoots. A film studio can't shoot a film using a directors guild director without using SAG actors too. This means that non-union facilities can certainly exist, but they won't be able to be used unless it's a non-union show.

I am not exactly enthusiastic about an union (for me, the general idea is that union = evil, no matter the field) whose purpose would be to limit the access of people to projects, on the plain idea that you're with us or you're not in at all. This opens the door to a lot of unfairness. The market itself and the job market should be fundamentally free.

The ones to blame for the current situation are exactly the studios and the artists, nobody from outside forced the industry into its current state. A lot of people now in the industry did back in the time exactly what they complain about others doing today. In the end it's a problem of age, a lot of people started in the 90ies, as young guys ready to do anything just to get into the industry, and now are in their late 30ies and they don't like it anymore, and the young guy trying to get into the industry by the same means they did it is now the enemy.

It's the way things go, marketplaces change and the development of CG left others without jobs back in the time.

I find it strange all CG people seem to be very happy that computers (and everything else) are now made in China, for prices that allow basically anyone to afford having at home a very powerful, Houdini-capable machine. Nobody complains about the people who lost their work in various parts of the world because of this. Everybody enjoys the low prices. However, VFX people seem to look with horror at the prospect of the same thing happening to *their* jobs. I guess producers enjoy low prices too.

Dragos

[Marc]

In the end it's a problem of age, a lot of people started in the 90ies, as young guys ready to do anything just to get into the industry, and now are in their late 30ies and they don't like it anymore, and the young guy trying to get into the industry by the same means they did it is now the enemy.

It's the way things go, marketplaces change and the development of CG left others without jobs back in the time.

I find it strange all CG people seem to be very happy that computers (and everything else) are now made in China, for prices that allow basically anyone to afford having at home a very powerful, Houdini-capable machine. Nobody complains about the people who lost their work in various parts of the world because of this. Everybody enjoys the low prices. However, VFX people seem to look with horror at the prospect of the same thing happening to *their* jobs. I guess producers enjoy low prices too.

uh yeah... just like the average movie goer could care less where the movie was made, neither do I care where my computer was made. If chip makers from Illinois are upset that their jobs are moving to China then let them fight their own battles... just like we're trying to do.

As for the age question, I agree with you in one sense. If a 19 year old college grad can bring the same thing to the table that you can as a 30-something year old then yes, you probably don't really have a leg to stand on. However just because the film studios are making a mint off our backs and some noob is willing to work as slave labour doesn't mean I should just give up and accept it.

Care to elaborate on why unions are evil, or is it just a gut reaction? I admit I used to share that gut reaction, but I think if it's handled right then it could work. Besides, I'm not sure there are many better options out there. Unless you happen to know of any .

M

[Netvudu]

IMHO one of the problems that will eventually arise and that´s somehow linked to outsourcing (which is one, but not the only reason for the downward spiral the sector is taking) is pretty obvious, but still difficult to solve: different countries equals different budgets.

And it is a problem. Let´s picture this situation: a SMALL FX house placed in London rejects a job because the producer/customer isn´t willing to pay what they deserve for the job...but we´re talking about London price-range here.

Now, the same producer comes to the FX house where I work, in Barcelona, and he probably can expect the same work done while saving 25%-30% of the budget. And it wouldn´t be OUR fault, because considering the usual budgets in Spain he would still be paying reasonably, so it would be mad on our side to reject the work. In that condition we would have to reject every local work as well. If instead of Spain he tries in China or India, budgets will fall even more.

Obviously, the bigger the task is, the less likely it is that he will find a place big enough around here that will be able to make the work, but for a few shots or regular commercials he will.

Admittedly, it is our responsability not to lower budgets, and indeed we do, but for spanish standards. We try to keep ourselves on the higher area regarding prices, and we try to give a better quality to account for those higher budgets (the last sentence sounds like a cheap ad )...but it will still be the spanish price range, at least until we are able to get most of our clients from the international market. From that point on, obviously you adjust yourself to the bigger markets budgets, simply because you can.

Now, I don´t see how a union could solve this, UNLESS

1) they forbid outsourcing

2) they heavily regulate it, so that a client would pay a tax similar to the difference in price between those countries. This price difference could be based on macroeconomy factors, such a percentage based on each country´s Gross Domestic Product (GDP)...but all this is quite theoretical and I hardly forsee a practical execution of such a measure

Edited April 1, 2010 by Netvudu

[digitallysane]

Now, the same producer comes to the FX house where I work, in Barcelona, and he probably can expect the same work done while saving 25%-30% of the budget.

Exactly, and this his how it should be, in a free market.

1) they forbid outsourcing

2) they heavily regulate it, so that a client would pay a tax similar to the difference in price between those countries.

Which means artificially interfering with the mechanics of the free market in order to protect the interests of some particular groups. Which is generally the job of a union, and one of the main reasons I dislike them so much. Other reasons would be the fact that they are a political organization who uses its member base as a tool for various obscure dealings which have no connection with the interests of said member base.

The industry will probably *be* unionized, because after it basically destroyed itself, it seems that now it reached a state of hysteria, and people want *something*, anything, just to feel better about it. I'm not sure that all those demanding unions, rights and regulation actually have any idea of what they are talking about and what will be the consequences. I do think it will be a bad day for the industry, and its transformation in something very ugly and static. Sure, some would enjoy that.

Dragos

[mightcouldb1]

I'm a "young college grad" and I think you old dudes still have a leg up on me.

If someone continues to build their skills as they age then they should have no worry about being replaced.

I think a union is a terrible idea. A union would be destroyed under the pressure of global competition.

At least those are my thoughts...

-Someone not yet in the industry

[Marc]

The industry will probably *be* unionized, because after it basically destroyed itself, it seems that now it reached a state of hysteria, and people want *something*, anything, just to feel better about it. I'm not sure that all those demanding unions, rights and regulation actually have any idea of what they are talking about and what will be the consequences. I do think it will be a bad day for the industry, and its transformation in something very ugly and static. Sure, some would enjoy that.

So... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you think we're doomed but don't have anything else to offer other than 'unions are evil' and somehow wanting to protect the status quo which almost everyone agrees is broken?

This thread is meant to be a constructive conversation on how to correct the issues presented to us as a worldwide industry. We're trying to bring all the issues to the fore and then figure out a way forward. You can't figure out a way forward if all you're doing is scorning the people who are trying to find a solution.

If you don't even think there's a problem then why participate in the conversation?

M