Guest rebo Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I originally posted this over at 3dbuzz's houdini forums but they suggested i post it here. ----- Hi, ive looked at all the VTMs and am intrugied by the workflow. Whilst i am attracted to the prodecural and networking style, i am left wondering is it really worth me spending alot of time learning Houdini when i have already invested much time in maya. So i wonder if anyone can tell me what can be done in Houdini that is hard / impossible to do in maya forinstance. Also can someone explain why the networking of Houdini is much more advanced than mayas Hypergraph? THey seem based on the same principles. Lastly i find the basic object manipulation in Houdini VERY long winded. For instance, TAB>transform state>left click>right click > then finally get to move stuff about. With maya it seems much more straightforward. Any tips regarding this is appreciated. Thanks. ---- Please note i dont want to know why X is better than Y, because that will just make a flame war. I want to know what is so fundamentally different about houdini that it can do things that are impossible in maya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenong Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Hey rebo, Hi, ive looked at all the VTMs and am intrugied by the workflow. Whilst i am attracted to the prodecural and networking style, i am left wondering is it really worth me spending alot of time learning Houdini when i have already invested much time in maya. Because you have a much better chance of getting hired with Houdini skills? So i wonder if anyone can tell me what can be done in Houdini that is hard / impossible to do in maya forinstance. Why don't you tell us what is really hard to do in Maya then we can tell you whether is it as hard or simple in Houdini? I'm not Maya-savvy so I won't be able to give you a good example. Also can someone explain why the networking of Houdini is much more advanced than mayas Hypergraph? THey seem based on the same principles. I won't say it is advanced, it's just different. The similarity ends at the nodes/OPs are networked. You can re-wire at will or insert OPerators anywhere into the network and have the ability to, for example, create 5 (or any number) branches for prototyping purposes and finally be able to mix and match the prototype results without worrying about destroying anything. Lastly i find the basic object manipulation in Houdini VERY long winded. For instance, TAB>transform state>left click>right click > then finally get to move stuff about. With maya it seems much more straightforward. Any tips regarding this is appreciated. Type 's' in the viewport, select the points/edges/primitives/etc you want then click on the OPerator icon in the Toolbar. Also you can setup Custom Toolbars that contain the most used/favourite OPerators or specific to modeling at the top of the viewport. You can also turn off "Secure Selection" in the Preferences whereby you can make your selection with the LMB then select the operation you want from the OPerator Toolbar. I want to know what is so fundamentally different about houdini that it can do things that are impossible in maya. There is nothing impossible in any package if there is time, money, and a R&D team. Please look at this link over at CG Channel and assume you have to write a MEL script to create the screw. Next, look at this odforce thread where one of the Apprentice users created the screw with 5 SOPs (Surface OPerators). Of course, there is another user who wrote a script to create the screw as well. A lot of Maya users ask for the "Script Editor" when they use Houdini but you don't really need to script when you can use the available tools to create what you want. You can go to this link for a discussion on the Mailing List. I am sure there are a lot of other examples or comments/views and I just got the ball rolling. Cheers! steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Hey there rebo... Those are some in depth questions you've got there . Here is a discussion we had once which might give some answers, http://odforce.net/forum/index.php?s=08dad...&f=15&t=537&hl= but I'll try and answer your specific questions too... i am left wondering is it really worth me spending alot of time learning Houdini when i have already invested much time in maya. That's really a question only you can answer. However, in my opinion, Houdini has a far greater range and future than any other packages... Also can someone explain why the networking of Houdini is much more advanced than mayas Hypergraph? THey seem based on the same principles. They are based on the same principles in the same way that American and Swiss cheese are based on the same principles. American cheese, while still technically cheese, is a post processed watered down horrible shadow of swiss (or any other kind of cheese actually). So it is that Maya's hypergraph pretends to be procedural, but its really just crammed on to the end and gives you the impression of it. Houdini is built from the ground up with a procedural workflow in mind. Every network operation you do gets performed everytime the program cooks. Therefore if you build something correctly, then you're able to go back at any point along the process and change something and that change will filter down to the final product. Its really very powerful. Maya's equivalent is the 'history', but its not really the same thing. Lastly i find the basic object manipulation in Houdini VERY long winded. For instance, TAB>transform state>left click>right click > then finally get to move stuff about. With maya it seems much more straightforward. Any tips regarding this is appreciated. If you could be more specific, then I could probably help you better. But suffice it to say that there is the default way of working and then there are the fast ways which bypass all that (hotkeys, secure selection etc.). Its not nearly as tedious as it's sometimes presented. In conclusion, Houdini and Maya are very different beasts. I prefer Houdini since its based on a very secure foundation of proceduralism which is theoretically possible to grow to include everything that the other packages have. While Maya (along with the others) are based on very traditional methods and everytime they add something it just bogs the package down more. Having said that though, Maya is still the best at a lot of things, while Houdini is still getting there. So you have to decide what it is you're after and pick the best package to suit your needs. Cheers Marc edit : Blork! Steven beat me to the punch...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anakin78z Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 So i wonder if anyone can tell me what can be done in Houdini that is hard / impossible to do in maya forinstance. While I haven't used Maya in a very long time, one thing that I keep hearing about from one person or another is that one thing maya can't do is grab channel values from a frame other than the current. This is super simple in houdini. On top of that it can be an arbitrary offset from the current frame, changing over time, or even based on something silly like the hight of an object. There, that's one thing. Houdini also has much better particle instancing, from what I understand. Cheers -Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concept4 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 While I haven't used Maya in a very long time, one thing that I keep hearing about from one person or another is that one thing maya can't do is grab channel values from a frame other than the current. This is super simple in houdini. On top of that it can be an arbitrary offset from the current frame, changing over time, or even based on something silly like the hight of an object. You can do this to a certain extent in Maya with the getAttr command. I found some irritating bugs with it in version 4.5 on some particle work but it seemed to work "ok" in 5.0. Houdini does it much better I know one thing that opened my eyes about Houdini and that was the per particle rotations. Particles done have an axis in Maya from what I know. I like the new particle sliding feature on the collision pop, I know you can't do that in Maya without some nice scripting. --Ronnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemijo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 ...one thing maya can't do is grab channel values from a frame other than the current... This is easy enough with Maya's frameCache node...you can read from it's future or past attributes and get values from other frames. That said, it is still much easier in Houdini. Also can someone explain why the networking of Houdini is much more advanced than mayas Hypergraph? THey seem based on the same principles. I'm a Maya TD currently using Houdini for FX. Although I've used Maya's Hypergraph many times to wire up connections, it is just not built for working in all the time. There are many attributes that you cannot get access to in the connection editor, and can only be used through MEL. The Hypergraph's proceduralism does not really give you access to the data the way the program has. If you decide to change something somewhere down the road, you will likely have to throw out a lot of work and continue from a saved backup somewhere. Houdini's architecture not only allows going back and changing things, it encourages it. You can have a network branch off and have completely different operations done to it, only to come back and use the new info for something else. Other apps typically follow a model - animate & texture (at the same time if you have enough employees) - light - render - comp. In Houdini, any of these operations can be done in just about any order. Which brings up the fact that all operations and entities are equal citizens. if you do a particle sim and want to change something, you usually have to rerun the sim...but in Houdini once the sim is done ther particles are geometry like anything else, and can have all the same operations done on them, like lattices, adjusting normals, or small adjustments in position that would require a re-sim in any other app. Using Houdini really forces you to think completely differently about how youapproach a solution...you have access to raw data and can pretty much do whatever you want. Because of this, Houdini seems to lack "features" that you might be used to in other apps...but you can make it work how you want, and with VEX or VOPS (basically a node based version of VEX - coding with a GUI) you can build your own custom nodes. I could go on, but you sorta have to see it. Jason put up a great example of the sorts of things you can do in this thread: Effects Challenge: Sunburn! I was already sold before I saw this, but this reminded me of the example that convinced me awhile ago. There are a few more like this on this site, and tons more in real world examples. To be honest I am disappointed that there are not more here, as it helps to get into the right mindframe. BTW, any tediousness, if not directly attributed to a lack of experience with the program, is well worth it. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rebo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Thanks for the indepth and detailed replies guys. I have decided to continue with my Houdini adventure. Some of the mode advanced examples ive seen in the last few days have really opened my eyes. The Flower stamped sphere reacting to changes in luminosity was very clever. Also the simplicity of the screw network was really nice. At first i thought it would be easy to do with mayas history , then i realised it wasnt so straightforward . Kemijo I am especially interested how you work. I assume you have set procdures to ensure cameras are matched over both applications. Basic Character Animation and environment in maya and comp in the FX from Houdini? BTW i have a masters in maths so tediousness is second nature to me . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemijo Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Good stuff, Rebo, glad to hear you are sticking with it...I'm from Toronto, and one of the (many) reasons I moved to London was because I knew I'd be using Houdini. There are far fewer Houdini guys at this studio than Maya (probably like most places), so most stuff goes through Maya first. Houdini crews are always given the hard stuff - and hardly ever the character stuff (I am hoping to do my part to help change this). There are no character effects in the show I'm on, but everything almost always goes through Maya first anyway. We are doing all the effectsy stuff, so yes we have proprietary tools built by R&D for getting data (everything, not just cameras) into Houdini for FX animation. Not sure if I can say much more than that...most of it is standard stuff though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I'd just like to pipe in and say thanks to everyone who phrased it alot better than I did . Its good to see more people from other software backgrounds coming here... it makes these discussions all the more interesting Cheers Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 cool to see more Houdini'ers... I've been using Houdini for about a year in my spare time, coming from Maya... ...so on Thursday I was a potential Houdini'er ......and now I return home from a little trip to Toronto with an actual JOB using Houdini!...so yay! for me my happiness is only dampened a little by the 246 emails in my inbox... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 kemijo, Are you guys converting animation as keyframes or raw channel data from Maya into Houdini? Or just raw geo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Description Frame cache node. Caches a double stream's value across a set of frames. Presents outputs based on integer frame offsets (eg. output 1 is the stream's value at "frame + 1"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemijo Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Are you guys converting animation as keyframes or raw channel data from Maya into Houdini? Or just raw geo? Hey edward, I don't know if they are keyframes or raw channels because I never look at the curves - I just use the exporter, and barely correctly I would imagine :)Once channels are brought in we don't alter them since animation is locked (or is supposed to be) when we get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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